Targeted red light therapy to support recovery

This interview with Bjorn Ekeberg was recorded on August 24, 2022 and transcribed using Sonix AI. Please check against audio recording for absolute accuracy.  

Peter Bowes: How important is light for our sleep, recovery and overall well-being? Today we meet Bjørn Ekeberg, a Philosopher of Science, an expert in metaphysics, cosmology and an enthusiast for red light therapy. Hello again and welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast. I’m Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity.

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Peter Bowes: Dr. Ekeberg is the co-founder of Flex Beam, a targeted red light therapy device designed to accelerate your body’s recovery and optimize health. And red light therapy, although it has been around for a while, quite a long while, it is becoming increasingly popular. I’ve experienced the rejuvenating effects of full body red light therapy. It certainly feels good at the time, but how does it work? Bjørn, welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast, joining us from the beautiful city of Oslo in Norway.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Thank you, Peter. It’s a pleasure to be on.

Peter Bowes: Really good to talk to you. We’ll get on to red light therapy in a second. I just want to really go back to where I started. A Philosopher of Science, an expert in metaphysics and cosmology, the science of the origin and development of the universe. Help me join the dots a little bit between that academic background and what you do now.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah, I suppose, Peter, that all revolves around the use of doctor as you used in the beginning. I have a bit of an ambivalent relationship to this because one part of the doctor is it comes from I did a PhD, I did a long academic career in Canada, and that put me on the path to become sort of a professor somewhere and so on. And I did a lot of research that landed me in this field of cosmology that we could revert to. But I ended up with a doctorate, and I always felt like an imposter, you know, that it’s like that’s a philosophical doctorate on philosopher and not an actual medical doctor. For people that I have huge respect for, I will get asked on airplanes before taking off. It’s like can in case of an emergency Dr. Ekeberg, can you assist? And I have to say, I could only tell people’s existential questions, maybe if I’m lucky, but it’s like, yeah, I wouldn’t put me there. But then as fate would have it, I would actually I was sort of steered on a path toward just more medical clinical space anyway. And these days in, in the business of something that work with like real doctors addressing very real health problems. So that’s quite a leap in journey. And I mean, I suppose for me it’s starting to make sense. But it’s a it’s a strange combination that results from two different kind of hats that I’ve been wearing.

Peter Bowes: It’s a good distinction to make, but I think also, and maybe increasingly these days, the lines are a little bit blurred, aren’t they? When we talk about certainly philosophy and those those bigger universal issues and our own personal medical health, the physical well-being, it is all intertwined, isn’t it?

Bjørn Ekeberg: I mean, in a certain sense, it’s all about like light is the main topic, I think, for the show. And that is upon reflection, this was not a conscious intent of mine, but it really is what I was interested in, in the philosophy of science and what I’ve ended up doing quite a bit as a public debating on questions around concern, the nature of light and how we understand it in the universe. Everything about the cosmological model and so on is based on our interpretation and understanding of what light actually is. And then to encounter a field which I did not by any conscious intent, but I was sent into a place in which the crucial part about how light affects us. And this is very idea, which was very strange to me at the time, and a strange to most people. It’s like, how could light possibly have such an impact on us and our health? And then you start to realize we already we already know this really well. We just don’t kind of understand it. I mean, like how, how important it is and what kind of force it is. So I guess I’ve, I’ve come from the huge cosmological background. Zeroing in on the actual effects on earth would be some way of forging the connection between the two, I suppose.

Peter Bowes: I think it might be useful then to, to go back to basics and explain, you know, what is red light?

Bjørn Ekeberg: Red light is on the long wavelength part of the spectrum that we can still see and beyond what the visible spectrum of light is, from blue to red, on the spectrum that we can see with our own eyes, there is a huge spectrum of different wavelengths that we feel. We perceive they are there, but we don’t see them. Infra red is one such category of light. Ultraviolet is another so on, that has, we know how certain impact on us. Interestingly, over 50% of the energy radiating on us on any given day, I think it’s been measured up to 53% is in the infrared range. So actually when you’re exposed to sunlight, you are mostly getting infrared light or like that’s the warming effect of the sun. And there’s some very interesting things that happen physiologically at this range of light, just on the cusp of the of the visible and into the infrared.

Peter Bowes: And which aspects of sunlight are not so positive for us because we all understand the dangers of getting too much exposure.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah, I mean I think it’s quite we are quite drilled in with the fear of overexposure to the sun in terms of skin damage and so on. And this and that is clearly one issue. I think in general though, for a lot of people living in the sort of modern world and listening to your podcast, for example, it’s often a question of not getting enough light or the right kinds of light. We are also surrounded by sources of light in our cities and our neighborhoods that are really not designed for humans, like they are designed for factories to be able to produce something very specific to sell in the marketplace. And then later it’s tested and it shows that it’s actually you have some kinds of light can give an adverse effect and disrupt melatonin balance in the body. And these kinds of issues are becoming more and more known. So we have a lot of artificial light that’s not healthy for us. And we have often a kind of a fear of sunlight for fear of mixing with sunburn. But our most important source of energy, of all things we know, is the sun like we are light beings more than we are any other thing. But it’s also interestingly, the one thing we kind of take for granted that’s at least what I find somewhat puzzling is that it’s so obviously a force and it has so much impact, clearly. But somehow we just it’s either on or off and we just don’t think about it. We don’t think about medicine and health in these terms.

Peter Bowes: And one area that I think is increasingly being better understood is the impact of sunlight on our circadian rhythms, the 24 hour rhythm that our body becomes accustomed to and is modified by exposure to light and the importance of exposure to light, at least in my view, as early as possible in your day to set that circadian rhythm perhaps into the next stage, the wake up stage.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah, indeed. And this is where red light therapy can really help is. One of the aspects, for example, is that you can stimulate the body’s own physiological response to sunlight because you are feeding it energy at the same wavelengths basically that you are exposed to in, in daylight. And it seems to have a very positive impact on sleep and melatonin production.

Peter Bowes: So let’s talk about your device then and go back to the beginning of its evolution. I think I get a better sense now of what your goal is with red light therapy. How did you start?

Bjørn Ekeberg: I came into this like I have three co-founders with me who I think were uniquely positioned to be able to get this off the ground because they happen to be Norwegian and Dutch hardware specialists. They created solar cell lamps and all kinds of things for international companies based in Asia. And their expertise was like how to get products made, tailored and so on, and to the European or US market. And they had stumbled on NASA research. The chief engineer Arjen Helder was sort of – he discovered this because he was looking for a solution to like his wife had some sort of liver problem was only prescribed pills and he was searching online and then he found NASA PubMed, all this stuff about red light therapy photobiomodulation. And he was in this very unique position that he could just look at all the, read all these papers and say, okay, I can just design one. I just make one myself because he had it all at his disposal. And then it worked on his wife and his wife gave it to the neighbor and then the neighbor wanted to the other neighbor wanted to come back and try it because it had a positive impact on his circulation in his legs and he could feel himself. So all these health effects were being discovered. And Arjen Helder longtime partner and friend of mine Christian Barmen he realized very quickly there has to be a business in this – there was a wow effect from what we were seeing. And they teamed up with Dr. Zulia Frost who is a medical and clinical expert her company having worked for over 20 years with laser light therapy, neurostimulation technologies like she knows about all these different ways of treating the body with light and light energy and really wanted a way to get this out to people because it’s not commonly known yet. And I think we realized when we all met in the same room, I remember it very well. It was December 2018 and we were all sitting in the same place and we saw like the one thing that makes the difference, the reason why people haven’t heard about this before is because it hasn’t been made really accessible. Like right now you can get red light therapy. Let’s say you read about this, we hear about it. Then you want to experiment with these effects. You have to be one of these types of super dedicated to I’m going to do whatever it takes. I’m going to set up a wall in my basement. And, you know, it’s like to get enough power. I need a pretty large panel of all these lights and I’m going to get undressed. I’m going to try to stick myself up against this and my body parts to sort of experience it. It’s very doable. You can do it, but you have to be very, very dedicated and very, very niche. And so the route we wanted to go was to try to design something for humans, like actually for the human body, because the current light panels that you can get, they’re actually they’re designed for plants like they come from a factory in China that produces them for grow ups because lights also, like humans, respond very favorably to the right kinds of light.

Peter Bowes: These are the kinds of panels that I know quite a lot of wellness centers, red light therapy, as you’ve just described it, with the large panels of lights that you quite literally just stand between, that comes at a cost, and you need to be able to afford to go to somewhere like that. And I suspect what you’re talking about is something that is more affordable for everyday people.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Definitely compared to large panels, to give you that full body effect for sure. I mean, what we set out to make was the world’s first, as you say, a targeted wearable device.

Peter Bowes: Right.

Bjørn Ekeberg: So it’s like a belt. You can wrap it around it for you. It would probably fit if you had it around your stomach, it would cover your whole lower back if you have lower back pain, for example, or go around your shoulder or your knee joint and so on. And I mean, one of the things we discovered is that also when you do it more targeted, it’s like literally wrapping around where you are, wherever it hurts or wherever you have an issue you might want to treat. The treatment also seems to be more effective because it’s so targeted. And that was part of Arjen’s idea. And the insight early on is that light actually, I mean, light coming from a bulb or from a panel. If you’re five centimeters away from a ten centimeters away from it, like most of the power is already gone. Like you don’t get a lot of you can get very positive. There are known positive benefits you can get from brief exposure, like being in a red lit room and so on for very certain things like eyesight and testosterone and these sort of interesting effects of red light therapy seems to work really well at low doses, for example, but most for most kinds of injuries or like pain reduction or any of things, you need quite a lot of power and you need to really get close to the site. And infrared light has this quality that it can penetrate up to ten centimeters in the body. It’s like a very long wavelength. So it’s able to go deeper than the skin. And this means that it’s possible if you are close enough and if you have something that really hugs the shape of the body, I mean, you can start treating at the core of a knee, for example, that’s like torn or in your shoulder joint. This, I would say, is somewhat unprecedented within red light therapy. We haven’t had a way to actually get this level of treatment, so to speak, and we made this in a portable way so everyone can use it. And it’s a $599 is the selling price for the device. Whether people find that affordable or not, it still is.

Peter Bowes: Is the device generally more often used to treat conditions, to treat injuries, as you describe it? Or is there a preventative sort of maintenance mode as well?

Bjørn Ekeberg: I mean, there certainly is for people who are let’s say I think a lot of listeners of your show as well will consider themselves health optimizers in some ways and looking for ways to improve your health.

Peter Bowes: Right.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Then there is taking good care of your mitochondria, taking good care of your cells, getting taking good care of those parts of your body that are really stimulated by light. It’s a very sensible thing to do. And then to use red light therapy can be very, very beneficial to support and to prevent and so on. What we saw is and what is sort of our main focus is still the ability to bounce back from injury or to drastically reduce pain for people. It still seems to be one of the most effective applications of Flex Beam – our device. And so this is the the one thing we tend to front now and we work a lot with athletes like in the sports and fitness sector where people actually are very conscious of injuries they create and they can really testify to the effects for everyday well-being. It’s a it’s more of a subtle it’s something you take every day to feel better. You won’t necessarily notice from one day to another that something has happened. And that’s the effect you can get if you are, for example, using it for an acute injury or something like this.

Peter Bowes: This is the Live Long and Master Aging podcast. Our guest is Dr. Björn Ekeberg, the co-founder of Flex Beam. We’ve just been talking in some detail about what Flex Beam is, what it could potentially be used for. I’m curious to know how many or roughly how many scientific studies there are backing up what you say it can do and the level of research that’s being done into this.

Bjørn Ekeberg: It’s actually a lot more extensive than you would think when you get into it. There are on PubMed alone, which is peer reviewed studies, there are 5000 papers on red light therapy. There’s 7700 papers on what’s called low level laser therapy, which is equivalent to what we now have as LED lights, and then another 3400 papers on photobiomodulation. And that is just within the peer reviewed sector. And NASA has been doing a lot of development of the technology since the early 2000s, which is probably one of the main drivers of a lot of the applications around these scientific studies as well.

Peter Bowes: I think you said earlier that perhaps the benefits are not widely known amongst the general public, but the technology has indeed been around for some time and organizations like NASA have been looking into it and using it. And also elite athletes have been benefiting for quite a number of years.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah, it used to be a known treatment for especially Olympic level athletes with a lot of funding as you could go and lie in one of these extremely expensive beds and just expose yourself to red and near  infrared light. And it would generally boost their performance or boost their recovery time, which is one of the main things that you get from exposure to red light therapy and why it’s so powerful, for example, for sports like for athletes is that it improves your recovery time. And so they would do this as a kind of advantage, but it’s been only for the few.

Peter Bowes: So I think a key point here is that this is a consumer market product that perhaps brings the benefits of those few over the years to people like you and I.

Bjørn Ekeberg: And that’s the idea. And that’s the really the vision of the company is to reach out with a kind of technology that has transformative potential for a lot of people. They’ve never heard of it. It’s usually been out of reach. But we believe and we had a sort of moonshot vision when we when we started that once people realize this or you can break the awareness barrier that something can be so positive and have so many positive health impacts, why wouldn’t you want to have one at home? When I first started, I mean, I interviewed if I if I may, Arjen Helder the inventor, my first job was to make a film about the founders. And one of the things that stood out to me was when he learned about this and he tried it on his wife and neighbors and discovered the effects, he was actually quite irate that why have we not heard of it? Why can’t I go and go to a pharmacy or somewhere and actually get a device that can help me with my pain instead of painkillers or any of the things that’s being prescribed? And I think part of that sort of that reaction is still forms kernel of the company, which we call Research Health, which is behind this device Flex Beam. So we really think that there is a different, different way. And red light therapy is one particular application has a lot of potential.

Peter Bowes: I think it might be helpful just to go through a very practical A, B and C as to how the flex beam works. In other words, what you do once you have it physically, what do you do? How long does it take and how often do you need to use it?

Bjørn Ekeberg: It’s set to function on a ten minute program and it’s automatically you just you literally, you place it and wrap it wherever you are. It’s about the size of a belt, like a weight belt has three light pods on it that radiate in different all different directions. So you get a very intense exposure to light once you turn it on. There are three programs you can choose, which has to do with how deep you want to treat because red light, which is around 600 to 630 nanometers, that’s a wavelength measure is largely works on skin has very positive effects on collagen production and the elastin in the skin and so on. But once you start adding infrared, you start getting deeper into tissue. And so we have three programs that allow you to determine if you what you want to treat this like deep tissue, for example, it’s mostly infrared.

Peter Bowes: In terms of knowing what to do, in terms of medical advice as to what is best for you, how do you help the user?

Bjørn Ekeberg: Most of the applications that we’ve seen are quite intuitive, as in like you hurt your shoulder and you would use it on your shoulder, but we have a throat. Doctor, Zulia Frost is one of the co-founders of the company, has developed a whole suite of protocols. If there are specific things that you are wanting to treat because sometimes it’s beneficial, for example, to treat the hip if you have a knee problem because the energy comes from a different place in your body and so on for. We have resources that were made available and this is part of our vision as well as it’s an education and awareness of how you can use it in different ways.

Peter Bowes: I often in fact, I always say to people, especially listening to this podcast, if you are thinking of a new intervention, whether it be diet, exercise or something else to try to improve your health, the first port of call should be your doctor to have a conversation to see if it is good for you. Would you echo that?

Bjørn Ekeberg: I mean, absolutely. I would speak to people who practice on humans, like people like physically treat people like physiotherapists, chiropractors, osteopaths and so on. I think often have a clear understanding of how the body works, the energy principle in the body, that it’s something that that light could have a certain kind of effect. You might if you ask your medical doctor, depending on which company sort of which country you’re in, you might get a lot of skepticism because the science of this is not known where medical doctors are being trained very often because they’re trained more in a biochemical paradigm or a pharmaceutical approach, which can be valid. But this is a completely different kind of approach to health that is not so well known in the medical establishment yet. 

Peter Bowes: You touched on it earlier, but what are the benefits for sleep? And again, is that scientifically proven that this kind of red light therapy can improve your sleep? And are we talking about deep sleep, R.E.M? What does it do.

Bjørn Ekeberg: There are there are several studies. I’m happy to provide them for your show notes.

Peter Bowes: That would be great.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah. If listeners want to see that are focused specifically on case studies of sleep following people over time like basketball team of female basketball players is one study that came out recently that has the practical applications, but the sort of the chemical reactions that are being traced in terms of melatonin production in the body and how that’s affected by red light therapy or exposure to near-infrared light. There’s quite a lot of studies on and it’s complicated to say exactly what it is that is happening, but it seems to have a positive impact on sleep induction. So for people who use Flex Beam on their chest late at night or just to calm down 10 minutes before bed, it seems to activate fall asleep more quickly. So we started seeing this and are doing studies of it in house. Like we have people who wear the sleep tracking rings and these kinds of things, but it’s not yet peer reviewed papers. These are effects that we are seeing. And the second way that I think it impacts sleep, which is important and also in the big picture that we started talking about, is it helps your body’s own circadian rhythm to reset itself. So if you expose yourself close at around sunset, for example, you get a dose of this. It signals to the body that you are getting closer to bedtime, that it’s the light in the red spectrum does not irritate the body the same way short wavelength can do. It seems to have a more soothing kind of effect, and it’s not picked up the same way in the nervous system as some sort of light is on, the day is on. And all of that seems to translate into just a healthier circadian rhythm. So that’s why we often for sleep, we recommend you use it as a daily. It’s like your own dose of sunshine, like sunset or sunrise in the morning. And a lot of our users are reporting great effects from this long term.

Peter Bowes: So is it generally the best use is just before you go to sleep for that red light as opposed to in the morning. Would you is there any reason to use it in the morning as well?

Bjørn Ekeberg: I mean, we would like you could argue you use it both times like sunrise to to like to be exposed, as you mentioned, I think early on from your own experience.

Peter Bowes: Right.

Bjørn Ekeberg: The importance of being exposed to sunshine in the morning can be very, very beneficial. I myself live in such a way that it’s like I can always the first thing I can do in the morning is to get sunlight. It’s important for me, but for a lot of people you don’t have access to that. And then having a red light like flex beam can be a really nice look at dose of like basically infrared spectrum. You know, why the sunrise is so red is because we can see more in the red spectrum at that hour because the sun is so low. So you get that little extra dose of infrared that can mimic a sunrise will help your hormonal system. But then in the evening it seems to be sleep inductive. So it’s what we advise to try it. If it doesn’t work, you will have a general systemic effect. But for a lot of people, it just kind of I mean, I try myself and I get knocked out and then I just sleep more deeply. Those are the main case studies we’ve had have been on deep sleep.

Peter Bowes: That was going to be my next question. There are obviously different types of sleep and clearly one of the most beneficial, REM, is important, but deep sleep. Generally, the sleep that you get in the first part of the the night of sleep is crucially important to you. If you don’t get enough deep sleep, you really feel it, don’t you? The next morning?

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah. It’s almost like you. I mean, I follow I have an Oura ring myself, so I use sort of sleep track. And I can really see it if it’s like you’re coming close to bedtime and it’s almost like you’re sliding, you’re dipping and you’re but you’re not really getting into it and deep. And then you wake up a few hours later and it’s like you had a rest and you didn’t have a deep sleep. That makes a huge impact. The effects that we’ve seen with Flex Beam, for example, is like it’s just a steeper climb right down on the curve, like right to deep sleep immediately. Whether this holds true for everyone, we cannot say we’re doing because it’s still early, but we are definitely developing for our next version of this to like more in the sleep range. That’s something we discovered as a very positive effect and sleep is essential to recovery overall. If you sleep better, you recover better, and therefore also your recovery goes faster, not just from local treatment where it hurts, but also because you’re sleeping better.

Peter Bowes: Right. So Bjorn let’s broaden this out a little bit. This is a podcast about human longevity in all its facets and forms and ideas. And we focus on the years ahead, hopefully the decades ahead of good health and well-being, focusing on healthspan, the number of years that we optimize our health and appreciate and benefit from 100% health as opposed to lifespan, which can possibly mean a few years at the end that aren’t particularly good. So I’m curious, you are clearly an individual who’s very well aware of his own physical health and well-being. To what extent do you think about your own longevity and adapt your lifestyle accordingly?

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah, it’s interesting. I had to reflect on it before our call as well that I’ve not been driven by the question of aging personally, by doing a lot of these sort of optimizations, or I adopted about eight years ago a lot of practices that are now known as biohacking, in some circles. I myself don’t really identify with the label. I just thought there were certain approaches here that made sense and I adopted them. And just because they made me feel better, think better, be clearer. All of these effects of health that translated into my every day and immediately and what I could accomplish now. But I’m starting to see it more in the long term picture. I think that these are the net effects, but it was never where I started from personally that I wanted to live longer necessarily. I just wanted to experience more of the life that is just here and be more active in it and more present. And if that comes along with what I believe or like to believe is that that also gives its own health benefits, that you are driven, you’re motivated, you’re into your into the life you have now, will also come with the upside of longevity, because you stay healthier that way.

Peter Bowes: Exactly. I think from talking to people like you and other entrepreneurs. Yes. Biohackers as well. The acknowledgment that it is more about how we are now and how we will be feeling tomorrow, it is that healthspan as opposed to lifespan? I don’t think there’s – well, there are some people who aspire to genuinely believe that they’re going to live to be 180 or older than that. And, you know, there’s a lot of skepticism around that. But I think crucially now, and looking at the times that we’re living through, we’re almost post-pandemic. It’s still with us, but we’re hopefully coming out of COVID that there is an appreciation, I think a greater appreciation of what good health now and good health tomorrow means to us as individuals and our families.

Bjørn Ekeberg: You know, absolutely. We see a change in this whole people’s approach to health as well. And your general orientation about health is less likely to go through medical doctors and pharmacies. And people are we see a lot of people are actively looking for solutions for themselves and how this kind of mindset shifting, and that is much broader than a biohacking label. I think it’s a very encouraging sign that people are looking for solutions like this.

Peter Bowes: I totally agree with you. I’m just wondering and it’s interesting that you haven’t given that much thought really to the the aging question, but do you have maybe you have thought about it now? Do you have aspirations as far as your own lifespan is concerned? Does that register at all with you? I know there are lots of people that listen to this podcast who are very determined to get to at least 80 or 85 or 90 or maybe 100. Is the is the goal.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah, let’s put it this way. I’m 44 and I think every birthday I’ve had recently has been a question of is this the midpoint? Is this the midpoint? And every year it stretches. So it’s something like this. They always like to think that it’s that there is yet twice as much time left. I don’t know personally. I mean, the one important link here and that I have discovered that if I have to reflect on aging now, is that all of the stuff with red light therapy, for example, is I mean, a primary way to take care of yourself. You have covered a lot on your show about mitochondrial health.

Peter Bowes: We have. 

Bjørn Ekeberg: Recently you had on a very interesting mountaineer who hacked himself using supplements to improve his mitochondria to show that this was possible. So I had to think that we should have given him a Flex Beam for that journey and see what happened, because this is one of the most heavily researched and well documented sides of red light therapy. Is this the impact it has on or on your mitochondria? The ability of your cells to generate more energy and better? Basically, all your chemical process in the body work more smoothly when the mitochondria are taken well care of. And the way the best way to take care of your mitochondria is through light by being exposed to good light as opposed to bad light. For my own aging, I just feel like I’m sitting and I’m holding something in my hand that at least gives me a little bit extra runway. It’s how it feels.

Peter Bowes: Well, I think what’s interesting from what you say and you refer to that interview about mitochondria and that was focused on Urolithin A the gut metabolite and increasing the amount of Urolithin A that’s available to our bodies. It’s interesting to me that there is more than one way to promote the health of something like mitochondria.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Yeah, certainly, and I think it’s a very interesting that it’s being the discovery of it, which is also goes far back. But this kind of awareness around it, it’s very recent, for example, how crucial it is to your health.

Peter Bowes: Bjørn this has been really interesting. I wish you all the very best with your product. I’m going to watch it with interest.

Bjørn Ekeberg: Thanks a lot for having me on. It was a pleasure.

Peter Bowes: And if you’d like to read more dive even deeper into this subject. I will put some links into the show notes for this episode. At the LLAMA Podcast Website LLAMApodcast.com

Bjørn Ekeberg: Thank you so much. And if anyone wants to check out Recharge.Health.com that’s also a place to go to, to take a deep dive into a lot of these things that we have discussed now.

Peter Bowes: This has been a HealthSpan Media production. In addition to the one that you’re listening to now, we’re at all the usual podcasting platforms, including this new one by BuyMeACoffee.com, which also serves as a platform to support the podcast. Only if you’re able and feel that what we do brings you some benefit. Our goal is that this podcast will always be free for everyone to listen to on your platform of choice. But if you are able to make a small contribution towards the costs, it would be hugely appreciated. Whether you do or not, we’ll be back soon and look forward to your company again as we explore the fascinating world of human longevity and good health. Thanks so much for listening.