Hacking mitochondria to scale new heights

Transcribed using Sonix AI. Please check against audio recording for absolute accuracy.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:00:02] A major bucket list has been ticked off. And I think it’s also gives you a kind of confidence that if you can pull off this kind of thing at this age from a particular background, you can feel a calm confidence to take on more now.

Peter Bowes: [00:00:20] Jatin Chaudhary is a mountaineer. He recently scaled the world’s highest peak, Mount Everest. He did it, he believes, at least in part, by hacking his mitochondria. Hello again. I’m Peter Bowes. Welcome to the LLAMA podcast. LLAMA is Live Long and Master Aging. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity.

Peter Bowes: [00:00:41] This episode is produced in association with the Swiss Life Science company Amazentis, which is pioneering cutting edge, clinically validated cellular nutrition under its timeline brand.

Peter Bowes: [00:00:54] Now, longevity is the goal. Human endurance, which is an essential part of everyday living, is also crucial to those of us who choose to push the boundaries of physical exertion and achievement. And in order to reach the summit of Mount Everest, Jatin Chaudhary embarked on a one-man experiment to optimize the performance of his mitochondria, the cellular powerhouses that we all rely on for peak performance. So how did he do it? He joins us now from his home in India. Jatin, welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:01:28] Thank you so much, Peter. It’s an honor to be on the show and I’m really inspired by you, the way you make the scientific geeky stuff consumable for the masses.

Peter Bowes: [00:01:38] That’s very kind of you. Thank you very much. And it’s really good to talk to you. And I suppose inspiration works both ways. You’ve just climbed Mount Everest.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:01:46] Yeah. 

Peter Bowes: [00:01:47] How does that feel? To get to the top?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:01:49] Yeah, top of the world feeling it is. Literally right. Because the kind of effort that you have to put in both mentally, physically and in some sorts, even spiritually. Right. It’s humongous. And once you reach at the top, the feeling definitely it’s top of the world, out of the world kind of thing. And one thing I would like to say is, despite all the facilities that are there, it’s not easy mountain to climb because of the sheer altitude, the physiological stress that you have on your bodies is immense. And I’ve seen that experience at firsthand, and I’ve seen people fail climbing it because of various reasons. So thankfully the way we’ll talk forward to is how an average Joe, like a 43 year old software professional coming up from striking keyboards right, in a year is able to climb Mount Everest. Yeah, that’s the story.

Peter Bowes: [00:02:39] Because your day job or your day job has been up until this point in software.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:02:44] Yeah. So it’s a sedentary lifestyle. And, as it so happened, I used to be a very active cyclist before, but then life happened and you are too busy in your life and family happens and you’re not active anymore. Before you realize you are over 40. And that’s when typically the aging shows up, right? You see gray hair in a beard and hair, right? You realize that the time is short for anything physically demanding that you have to do. You have to do it now. One of the major bucket lists I had was to climb Mount Everest since I was a kid. Then the journey started to figure out, how can I do it and come back alive?

Peter Bowes: [00:03:19] You’re absolutely right. Time is certainly precious. I mentioned that you’re talking to us from your home in India. Tell us about the area that you live in.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:03:25] I actually come from a desert. It’s a white desert. In fact, about 40% of salt production happens – for India i`t happens in my area. So those are like really large salt flats. Interestingly, we don’t have many mountains nearby. There are a few volcanic basaltic mountains nearby, but I would not call them mountains. They are like hillocks kind of a thing. But yeah, that’s about the westernmost part of India. As flat as flat could be.

Peter Bowes: [00:03:52] So very, very different.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:03:53] Very different. Very different 

Peter Bowes: [00:03:54] To the environment surrounding Mt. Everest.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:03:56] Absolutely. I’m at like zero meters at sea level.

Peter Bowes: [00:04:00] You’ve been very active for most of your life, but you decided you had this ambition in you, that you had this urge to climb the world’s highest mountain. Once you’d, I suppose, acknowledge to yourself that that was the goal. And understanding that it’s clearly very, very difficult and very, very few people can actually achieve it and survive in those conditions. How did you set about preparing? 

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:04:23] So first, I really wanted to see how does my body react to higher altitudes. So to start with, I did a high altitude track in India. It’s known as Parang La trek. It’s a pretty rigorous trek. 15 days trek through no man’s land, Pretty isolated. We reach a height about 5600 meters, which is probably about the highest mountain in Europe. I think it’s close to Mount Elbrus’s height. So once I realized that my body is responding well with the demands of higher altitude, I went forth to climb 6000 plus meters peak. And that is when I first encountered the superheroes of Himalayas, which are the Sherpa, the Sherpa community of Nepal. These are the people who have spent like 500 to 600 generations in Tibet, and then they move to Nepal. So their body is physiologically adapted to the demands of high altitude because the previous generation have stayed more than – a height of more than 4000 meters. That’s when I realized that the Sherpas are able to perform. So it could be an average Sherpa will perform better than a very well-conditioned athletic mountaineer over there. And then when I summited Ama Dablam, which is like one of the most technical peaks over there – 6800 meters. And when I experienced first hand, when I was taking about 8 to 10 breaths per step nearing the summit, and this guy was just taking it like a stroll in the park, I thought that if I have to Mount Everest, I need to read up more on what makes them superheroes over there because it’s there somewhere hidden in their physiology. And if I can hack into it, probably I can do it as well, because I had read on Mt. Everest that after age of 40, the chances of summit reduces a lot. The probability of fatality also goes up. So I know that I had like six months in hand. I need to do my study. I have like limited time now. The second reason was that I took time off from my job, which you can’t do for long. Right? So I had this one shot at it just six months to hack into my biology and see what I can do.

Peter Bowes: [00:06:21] And of course, what you’re trying to do is essentially hack into your body and replicate the physiology of people who have evolved over generations to survive in these conditions. You want fast results. You want to do this quickly in a matter of weeks and months of preparation to live in the environment that these people who can do it much more easily than you can, but they’ve been doing it for many, many years.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:06:47] Absolutely. And when I read about it, though, it’s not possible to get that evolutionary mechanisms in one go through some kind of medical job. But it led me to many insights into how our body works and how our body works at higher altitude in extreme hypoxic environment. That did help me find out the right pathways to hack into my biology because the functioning may be different, but the results are the same. If I have to give you a few examples why Sherpas are able to perform better, they definitely have a slightly better lung capacity, not much, but slightly better lung capacity than us. They have about twice the nitrous oxide which dilates their blood vessels so more blood can be carried to the muscles. But the most important part is, as you called out, they have the super efficient mitochondria in their cells which are able to get whatever little oxygen that you have and convert that into into energy, convert that ADP molecule into ATP molecule. And very interesting fact that came out from the research was that in fact, the mitochondrial density in the cells is less than a normal low lander because there’s a lot of research and there’s a lot of emphasis, even when we exercise this, that when you exercise high intensity, your mitochondrial density will go up right and results into a larger oxygen uptake capacity. But interestingly, they have less mitochondria than us. Right. But their mitochondria are super efficient, which are which you can in a way classify as a good quality mitochondria. But they are just at better at using the oxygen at higher altitude. So my job was pretty straightforward that you will get only limited fuel that is oxygen to your cell. Now you need to ensure that you have the best mitochondria out there. And as we know that as we age that the quality of mitochondria drops and definitely long-term good nutrition and long term good exercise definitely helps keep that up. But I needed something pharmaceutical to ensure that I get into my best shape. Personally, I was also researching into Indian medicine, which has been quite a while, and pomegranate plays a very important role in Indian medicine. In fact, that’s a go to fruit if someone is sick. Even when you visit someone in India with sick, you actually take pomegranates with you.

Peter Bowes: [00:09:03] That’s very interesting.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:09:03] And in Buddhist. Yeah. And in Buddhist texts, it’s written that even if like a person is dying and if you give them pomegranate juice, he’ll probably live a few minutes longer. So more more of a legend and metaphorical stuff. But it seems that a few thousand years of wisdom in Indian herbs in medicine has also seen the beneficial impacts of pomegranate. But now we understand why. And once you understand why, you can definitely hack into taking greater benefit from the same molecular mechanism.

Peter Bowes: [00:09:36] So your search through the literature and an understanding, a growing understanding of the mechanisms led you to urolithin A. 

[00:09:45] Yeah. Now this is something that we have talked about a lot on this podcast and if you want to read about the background a year to Urolithin A and Mitopure which we’re about to discuss just search in our website we’ve done countless interviews about this and I’ll put the notes into the show notes as well for this episode. So you discovered Urolithin A is it something that you’d ever heard of before?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:10:07] Oh, not much. I did read about it, in a few of the research papers, and I had heard about it in one of the podcasts from one of the biohackers that I follow. So I had this in mind, and when I started researching into mitochondria, Urolithin did come up multiple times and I thought that this is a time to look for a manufacturer who does that. And interestingly, there is no one else doing that right. And it was quite a job for me to get it in India from the United States. So yeah, all the research pointed to this, the molecule, which was helpful in bettering the quality of my mitochondria. So the, the way it works is it improves your mitophagy – the way your mitochondria, which are not good, which are not optimal at using your oxygen, it will just break it down into components through which the cell can recreate new, fresh, better functioning mitochondria. So, and what I realized was – so interestingly, I started on pomegranate herbal supplements before Urolithin A because I knew that pomegranate would help me. But then I realized that not all human beings can actually, generate Urolithin A from pomegranate compounds because you need a specific type of gut bacteria to do that. And about one in three people don’t have it. Right. And other people also that have it  – copious amounts of pomegranate juice would be too difficult for me to get that kind of concentration in my blood. So yeah. Mitopure was the way to go for me. I was trying different kind of stuff, but once I got Mitopure, I knew that I had it. And it was just about, looking at my biomarkers for next three months before the Everest expedition and then definitely the result on the summit.

Peter Bowes: [00:11:55] And you mentioned mitophagy – just to dive into that process a little bit, essentially, that is the renewal process of perhaps getting rid of some of those mitochondria that are not working so well. It is essentially making sure that you optimize the mitochondria in your cells, which is something that may not be happening naturally.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:12:16] Yes. So normally as you age, mitophagy as a process does not work as efficiently as you are when you are young. So you end up with a lot of mitochondria which are not functioning well. And Urolithin A what it does is it gets into the cell and it binds to certain receptors, which triggers the mitophagy of inefficient or the bad gotten mitochondria.

Peter Bowes: [00:12:41] So what did you do next? Clearly you at this point understood the science. You discovered Urolithin A and might Mitopure, which is the commercial name for the Urolithin A that is being provided in this supplementation. How did you test it?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:12:59] Yes. So the thing was for me, it was just when I got my Mitopure in my hand, it was three months to go for my expedition. For me, it was to keep everything as it is, what was working. So my nutrition, other nutrition did not change my sleep schedule did not change my exercise regime did not change. So the only thing that I added was Mitopure. And for me, I need to now look at the biomarkers. For example, if I am getting better efficient mitochondria my VO2 max should go up because otherwise I have been working out for some time. So it means that I would not get immediate extra capillaries to supply the blood to my muscles right or extra lung capacity. So the only thing that can get better right now is mitochondria. And my VO2 max actually went up from 48 to 51 during my period before the expedition. So that is quite a jump. 51 is a max that I have ever been until now, which I didn’t expect that to happen. And I’m not really sure it’s because of Mitopure but my resting pulse. And I’m talking about my average resting pulse for the entire month. It went down from 47 to 45. That’s quite a big decrease. If you see on a monthly average.

Peter Bowes: [00:14:10] Do you record your resting pulse 24 hours a day? And I assume that low point comes when you’re sleeping?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:14:15] Yeah, absolutely. It comes when you’re sleeping. And I recorded for 24 hours. And when these two happened. Right, I was then feeling very positive about the entire expedition. And probably that had some placebo effect as well. Maybe, I don’t know.

Peter Bowes: [00:14:26] This is the Live Long and Master Aging podcast. Our guest is Jatin Chaudhary, a mountaineer on a mission to optimize his mitochondrial health. Well, you could say that you managed to achieve that. At what point were you satisfied? Because clearly this is a one-man process. You say you tried to keep everything else the same as you were measuring the effect of the Urolithin A, the Mitopure supplementation. But I’m curious as to what point you could actually feel results.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:14:56] Yes. So I could feel it in second month itself, I think about a month and a half into it. I could see the difference in my VO2 max, and the way I measure my VO2 max is through a power meter and a heart rate monitor. So it’s pretty accurate. If you see in cycling. So once I reached 50 from 48, I knew that this is working because never before I had reached like 40 to 50 so fast. So and 50 has been the maximum that I ever been in my life. So I knew that there’s something good. And then once it did 51 in about two and a half months, I knew that this stuff is working and I kept on taking it right till the Camp IV. So I popped in Mitopure even on Camp IV of Mount Everest. And then one thing that also gave me confidence was having discussion with other physicians. So my childhood friend is an orthopedic surgeon and I shared with him all the research and he said that this looks very promising. And he even talked about probably there’s something which can be useful for post-operative care of elderly patients, right? So if they are on on this kind of thing, probably even the recovery could be better. So that kind of an expert suggestion from my friend also gave me confidence that, yeah, the research is in place, the results are pretty good. So I was very confident that, yeah, this is doing better.

Peter Bowes: [00:16:16] aYeah, that’s very interesting because of course muscle strength and endurance, which is all part and parcel of this, is crucial as as anyone gets older, not necessarily an extreme athlete, but just let’s say ordinary people getting older, frailty being one of the key points in people’s lives that begins to affect them very negatively. Things begin to go wrong once a human being is frail, mobility, potential for accidents and that kind of thing. So that’s why, more broadly speaking, this is interesting. Have you continued to use this product ever since?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:16:52] Oh yeah, I have. I have continued now. And I’m also getting my parents onto it because my parents are 70 plus now. And definitely I saw the benefit and I would like to get them at least on a four month course to see if they benefit or not.

Peter Bowes: [00:17:08] In terms of actually conquering Mount Everest. You say you continued to use Mitopure all the way through. Did you use it right through up until reaching the peak?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:17:18] I used right till the peak. So till Camp IV and so when you go to Mount Everest, there’s a long trek that you have to do from the last landing that you do in helicopter. So it’s about ten days, 8 to 10 days of trek that you need to do to go to the base camp. And then you do multiple rotation to higher camps to acclimatize your body. And then you have the final five day summit push onto the summit. All this throughout I was taking the Mitopure, so I did not miss it for a single day. Even during my acclimatization rotations or even during my summit push, I really benefited from Mitopure and when I really saw the benefit was during the first, rotation. At first rotation we went to a height of 6800 meters. It’s about the same height which I summited in last November, that’s Ama Dablam. And last November I was really struggling. It was about 8 to 10 breaths per step kind of a thing. And here I was taking about two or three breaths per step and last ten meters, when I really struggled on Ama Dablam, I actually challenged the Sherpa for a sprint. Let’s sprint to the top. Like 6800 meters is probably higher than any mountain outside Himalaya except Aconcagua. And so that’s quite high if you see right. And to really sprint to the top is something and Sherpa was like, what do you do for fitness? I’m like, nothing special. Right. So when a Sherpa comes instead, what you do for a fitness, it means a lot for you as a mountaineer, because they are the superheroes of the mountain and they see all kind of mountains with them all through their climbing years. So that was quite a compliment. And just to celebrate the complement, what I did was I had this extra pouch, empty pouch of Mitopure with me. I took it with me and I took a click on the summit. And just as a gratitude thank you note, I sent them to their Instagram account. I didn’t even contact the company representatives. I just sent to their Instagram account that thank you so much. Your product helped me a lot and then they reached out and they’re great guys. It has been a friendly relationship for last month and a half.

Peter Bowes: [00:19:17] I think it would be fascinating, wouldn’t it, if there was a large clinical trial involving lots of individuals with some element of control as part of that experiment, really to determine using much more data the effect of this kind of supplementation. Because I suppose cynics listening to you could say, well, you are just one person. There might have been other factors because this was the first time that you’d actually managed to scale Mt. Everest and that perhaps for some it might be a leap to say that this kind of supplementation had such a significant effect for you.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:19:53] No, absolutely. I think we need more clinical trials and I think whatever I read till now, all the studies, right. They were at or in the environment which are let’s say normal environments. I think if you have studies which are in such kind of extreme hypoxic environments, probably we will get more stark results and that would be more indicative whether that is working or not. Because if you see the climbing in high altitude is a game of mitochondria. Straight and simple. Right. So if you really want to see the impact of Mitopure, I think we should have a study at at least, to Everest base camp, which they’re on 5300 meters should be good enough.

Peter Bowes: [00:20:31] That’s interesting. And actually, I was going to ask you about the response of others, other people around you, experienced climbers that they clearly noticed the difference in you?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:20:41] Yes sherpas noticing think is a great thing. It’s a huge compliment. The best compliment that you can get when a Sherpas ask you like, what do you do for fitness? And because it’s not that I’ve been an active mountaineer as such, I could see that also in my, I don’t know, it’s more anecdotal, but when I saw summit photographs of me and my team members, you would see that faces are puffed up. Right. And you could see the work of altitude on them. And it seems that their body is inflamed. And when I saw my pictures, like I look the same, smiling the same on the summit or on the base camp. And I felt great as well. And when the next day we came down to Camp II what you typically do is you take a rest day at Camp II because you’ve already been through 40 hours of ordeal without much food and sleep, you take a rest at Camp II and then come down. But it was just me and one Russian climber. Both of us came down the same day. So that also speaks a lot because I did not feel any aches or pains. So any kind of inflammation in the body, the physiological stress was very low. So though I could not measure, but having measured my C-reactive protein, which is a marker for inflammation, would have been great. And as you said before. Right, I think we should probably need a clinical study for this thing because I definitely see that there is an improvement in overall body inflammation even under extreme physiological stress.

Peter Bowes: [00:22:01] Yeah, I agree. I think that would be very interesting. Just tell me what else you do for physical activity in terms of preparation and exercise?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:22:09] So normally I love biking, cycling, so I cycle. I may run a bit. Not much of a runner. So and there are occasional weight training sessions that I do that’s about it. So these are the three things that I do so normally, mainly zone two kind of a cycling and a sub maximal weight training.

Peter Bowes: [00:22:31] What’s the next adventure?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:22:33] Yeah. So next is – I’ll give you a brief story before I tell my next adventure. So because of my Ama Dablam summit and my training, I did a one month training as well in Nepal at KCC (Khumbu Climbing Center). So I was choosing the expedition leader for my team of 11 members and all the expedition leaders have to go and meet the Secretary of Nepal because as a team leader, you are also the eyes and ears of the tourism ministry. All kind of rules of mountaineering are followed over there. So then I met a Korean climber over there and he’s a very famous climber, was planning to do the south face of Lhotse, the most difficult one. And he asked me that how much like what’s the population of India? And I told him like 1.5 billion. And I said, Vikram, no one has ever done a full Explorer Grand Slam, which involves climbing the Seven Summits, but more importantly, it’s reaching the South Pole and North Pole from the outer coastline. And I told him, I don’t know why. So he asked me like, what’s your age? I said, 43. Well, if you’re doing Mount Everest, you can do that. And I thought that probably I should do that. So the next one is to go from outer coastline, that is Hercules Inlet to the South Pole, which is about 1130 kilometers of skiing expedition. No one has done it from India. I’d like to be the first one to do it so more can follow. But yeah, that’s that’s the next thing. And I think that is where the information part will come handy for me because it’s a very rigorous expedition, about 8 to 10 hours of high physical activity for two months, straight in very harsh conditions. So looking forward to my trip there.

Peter Bowes: [00:24:03] So this is a podcast about human longevity in all of its forms, whether you’re an extreme athlete or not. And I’m curious, we tend to look forward, the decades ahead, and different people have different aspirations about their own longevity and how they approach the process of of living in those decades ahead. Do you have a particular vision of the years ahead for yourself?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:24:28] Well, absolutely. So, in fact, when we were climbing, we had the gentleman from Switzerland. He’s a 70 year old climber. And till now, I had absolutely no idea of what kind of old man I want to be. And when I saw him, he had braces on. He was struggling. But he did climb to the balcony, which is 8400 meters. And the kind of courage that wasn’t right. And I told him that you are exactly the kind of 70 year old man I want to be. So. Yeah. Definitely I would. I would like to, keep my journey of exploration ongoing with mountains, but as well as my own physiology, like the experiment with Mitopure has definitely allowed me to go through much research and I feel that a lot can be done in terms of having a healthy lifespan and probably longer than what our parents are used to. So I think there’s a lot of research that’s going on which which needs to be read. Right. And the kind of work that you are doing, Peter, is like if more people know about it right, more people will get interested. And once you have an industry then the funding also comes in. I still feel that this entire research is underfunded right now. We need more money over here. So and old age should be seen as a disease, right. And should be worked upon as such. So, yeah. I’d like to continue my exploration and figuring out what can help me have a longer, healthy lifespan so I can do all this much more right with my children, grandchildren, who knows what? 

Peter Bowes: [00:25:57] Exactly. And so many people say that to me that ultimately it’s about the children and the grandchildren and being around for them and perhaps opening opportunities for them as they grow older as well. It’s interesting to me that you are inspired by the science, that you’ve delved into it, you’ve benefited from it, and you see the potential. And I also agree with you that it wouldn’t it be wonderful if there was so much more funding for this kind of research?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:26:21] Yeah.

Peter Bowes: [00:26:21] In terms of others around you, have they been inspired to perhaps follow in your footsteps? I’m just curious how your achievements have inspired others?

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:26:32] So, first I’ll talk in terms of Mitopure because that was very evident. So when I came down and told this to my friends, two of my friends from US immediately ordered and then one friend from India was like, ‘How do I order from India?” Right, because they are still struggling. So he was again waiting for someone to come from US and get it for him. So who? So I used to send a daily note to everyone, all of my friends and family. So I typically do not publish publicly on either Insta or Facebook, kind of shy socially. But I do regularly post a daily note to my friends and family. And I told them about my training. I told them this stuff I’m trying, I told them about my results and then the overall Everest expedition. And in fact, as I said before, many of my friends are really excited about gifting it to their parents because of the lasting benefit. Right? The first thing that comes to the mind is that there’s something my parents should have. So yeah, they have benefited in terms of this research and they’ve also benefited that. How come, 43 year old guy, right? Not exactly I’m not a sports guy. So I used to be active, but not exactly the most fit guy that you find in the gym can actually think of doing an average in ten months. And structurally you can do that. So I think that gives them a lot of motivation in their area of life. Everyone have a different Mt. Everest to climb. It’s not exactly a mountain for them, right? It’s something else they want to do. So they also think of hacking their way into their Mt. Everest and see what they can do.

Peter Bowes: [00:28:02] Clearly, there is a huge sense of achievement. Once you manage to scale a mountain like Mt. Everest, the highest peak on Earth, does that glow of achievement stay with you? It’s been a few weeks now.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:28:15] Yeah, absolutely. I think that the emotions they change, definitely it’s a sense of achievement and elation kind of thing. But normally, like last few weeks, it has turned more into a karma kind of a feeling because a major bucket list has been ticked off. So it’s more like, okay, now, when one major thing is done to what next kind of thing? And I think it’s also gives you a kind of confidence that if you can pull off this kind of thing at this age from a particular background, you can feel a calm confidence to take on more now.

Peter Bowes: [00:28:51] Well, Jatin I think it’s hugely inspiring. Congratulations on your achievement and all the best for your future adventures. Really good to talk to you. Thank you.

Jatin Chaudhary: [00:28:59] Thanks so much Peter

Peter Bowes: [00:29:00] Thank you so much. And if you’d like to read more about Jatin’s adventure, I’ll put some details along with a transcript of this conversation into the show notes for this episode. You’ll find them at the Live Long and Master Aging website. That’s LLAMA podcast, LLAMA podcast.com. You can also find there all of our previous interviews on this subject, exploring the importance of mitochondrial health for physical endurance. 

This episode was brought to you in association with Amazentis. A Swiss life science company, which is pioneering cutting edge, clinically validated cellular nutrition under its Timeline brand.

The LLAMA podcast is a Healthspan Media Production. We’re available on all of the main podcasting platforms now including YouTube. You can follow us in social media @LLAMApodcast and you can direct message me @PeterBowes. Thank you so much for listening.