An octogenarian living dangerously

Jean Ketcham: [00:00:00] I don’t know whether you’ve skydived or not, but when you walk off that drop zone and you’ve jumped out of an airplane at 15000 feet, you can conquer the world. It gave women so much confidence and they just bloomed.

Peter Bowes: [00:00:21] Hello again, and welcome to Lamba, the Live Long and Master aging podcast. I’m Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity. 

JUVICELL: [00:00:32] This episode is brought to you in association with JUVICELL, the All-In-One longevity supplement that contains 10 key ingredients shown to have a positive impact on Healthspan as validated by scientific studies. To find out more, visit JUVICELL.com. That’s JUVICELL.com.

Peter Bowes: [00:00:52] How do you see yourself aging? Are you in control of the process? Do you see it as a downward spiral towards senility or as my guest today prefers? Is it an opportunity to grab life by the horns and live up to your true potential? Jean Ketcham is the founder of Aging But Dangerous, a group that helps women enrich their lives in ways that they may not have thought possible. Jean joins me now from a home in Minneapolis. Jean, welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast.

Jean Ketcham: [00:01:25] Oh, thank you, Peter. I am so happy to be talking to you.

Peter Bowes: [00:01:28] Yeah, it’s wonderful to speak to you. You’re you just turned 81, haven’t you?

[00:01:33] Yes, I did. And it’s pretty exciting. I’ll tell you,

Peter Bowes: [00:01:35] Well you’re you’re looking great. You’re sounding great. You’re full of full of life. And I’ve been watching a few of your videos and we’ll talk a little bit later in the podcast about those videos. But it’s fascinating to me what you are doing with this group and the different subjects that you cover and what you’ve managed to achieve over the years. I’m curious to start with what happened in your life to bring you to the realization that people, women in particular, could lead fuller lives than they might have realized.

Jean Ketcham: [00:02:03] Well, when I started this with my friend twelve years ago, it was I mean, I was 69 and I always have had a lot of young friends. And these 50 year old women, I mean, of course, this was 12 years ago. So women were different than fifty than they are today. But we just saw our friends just really going into the closet. I mean, they were so upset and traumatized about turning 50 and they’re just like, oh, my gosh, it was ridiculous. And so, Suzanne, I decided, you know, we’re going to get these women out and we’re going to get them doing things. I mean, it was just and so that’s what we did. But it was just that at that time, the whole aging thing was just really very traumatic. And whereas today it’s just a whole different story today. Peter, you know, fit that fifty year. Well, my daughter, 53, when she turned 50, she went on a 350 mile bike ride so that that woman in her 50s now is is so much more advanced. But it’s still back to the aging. The whole aging process seems to really upset people are they get very concerned and about it. I don’t really think about it. To tell you the truth.

Peter Bowes: [00:03:18] I find sometimes it’s just the words age or aging or has a negative connotation for so many people.

Jean Ketcham: [00:03:24] Do you know what, Peter? Exactly. We had our our tissue. We had T-shirts with aging, but dangerous on him, our logo. And so many women said, you know, I’m not wearing a T-shirt around there. I like the word dangerous, but I don’t like that word aging. So, you know, they were like, no, no, you know, yeah.

Peter Bowes: [00:03:40] It’s one thing that really fascinates me doing this podcast and talking to people like you, also talking to leading scientists around the world about the aging process. Again, coming back to that description, aging and getting older. It can sometimes result in an immediate switch off that people simply do not want to know and acknowledge that we are getting older. And the other thing I really dislike is the phrase anti-aging. I think we should embrace aging. It’s why I call the podcast Master Aging. We’re going to get older whether we like it or not. And it’s the way that we do that.

Jean Ketcham: [00:04:13] I know. I know. And I tell you, I when I turned 80 last year, I was so excited I had to have cataract surgery and I’ve always worn glasses. And then I went to contacts. And then as I got older, the contacts started drying out my eyes. And so I had to go back to glasses. Well, I had cataract surgery a year ago and I happened to have the kind of eyes that the lens is really good in. I mean, I didn’t have to pay extra anything. And I got 20/20 vision at the age of 80. I mean, is that just incredible? I was looking at my hands and I saw these age spots in my hands and I thought, oh, my gosh, that is so cool. I mean, it’s like, oh, I just I mean, I still can’t get over it. I don’t have to wear readers nothing. So, I mean, it’s just like there are so many exciting things about about getting older that you just I mean, it’s just exciting. Now, my dad lived to be 104 and he was healthy and skydived with me when he was 91. And he just two weeks before he died, he started having a little mini strokes, but. I just always think, you know, I just it’s, you know, I mean, I’m going to make it to that and I don’t even think about it, to tell you the truth. But he was very healthy. And I do think health has a lot to do with it. It’s hard to stay optimistic if you’re not healthy.

Peter Bowes: [00:05:36] Yeah, I totally agree. But you are aging and you’re embracing science, medical science as you go. I think that is one of the big differences, isn’t it, between now and what we have available to us than even just 20 or 30 years ago?

Jean Ketcham: [00:05:49] Yes, yes, I agree. In fact, I was saying to somebody just I think yesterday, I think these these 50 year old women look like they’re 35 or, you know, younger. And I think one of the reasons I think, you know, all that, you know, you know, women are learning how to eat better. They’re learning how to take care of themselves better. Whereas, of course, in my generation, we didn’t have all that information to go by. But, yeah, I just think science is there doing so much and it really is happening, you know, very rapidly. And that’s why it’s so, you know, it’s very exciting, you know.

Peter Bowes: [00:06:26] So tell me, before you started Aging but Dangerous. Tell me about your life up until that point. What did you do?

Jean Ketcham: [00:06:33] Well, I had several careers. I had a clothing store in St. Louis, Missouri, and I was in that business at a very exciting time when a lot of the couture designers, Bill Blass and, you know, a lot of those designers were going into ready to wear. So I’d fly into New York and, you know, buy on buying trips and everything. And it was a very it was very stressful because I didn’t have any money and I was running a store. But but then we moved to Minneapolis. My husband got an opportunity here. And then I started and then I was a fabric rep. I called on designers and architects for commercial selling commercial fabric. And I did that for about eighteen years. And then I did you know, I did all kinds of things until I started this. I retired at 62 and started you know, I was involved in a table company, you know, where I was helping with the design and all this for, you know, furniture and then went into a, you know, like it. You know, there was a facelift product that I really believed in that, you know, I went into and helped with that. And just it was several, you know, did quite a few different things until we started Aging But Dangerous. And then, of course, this has been my life for the last 12 years.

Peter Bowes: [00:07:48] So you had a varied and very busy life. But then it was in your mid 60s that you had this realization and it was largely through the observation of of other women about the same age and what they were doing with their lives.

Jean Ketcham: [00:08:01] Yes. And I’ve always been worked with women in both my both my careers. I worked with women. And so I’ve always been a real woman’s woman and I so always around a lot of women and everything. So, yeah, I mean, I just I’ve it just was important to me and it still is important to me to pull women along. You know, it’s kind of like if they, you know, they they kind of get they let things get them down or they let the, you know, their appearance or their hair or their whatever. And I just that just really bugged me. I just couldn’t you know, it’s like, come on, come on, you know, get up and do, you know, do stuff. And and as you know, we we started our I’m a skydiver and we started our Martini Jump Skydives. And Peter, I was on a TV show for about ten minutes talking about our skydive. And when I got home, I kid you not. There were a hundred emails on my computer of women that wanted to skydive here in the Twin Cities. We had 107 women jumping out of an airplane all day long from the age of 50 to 80. And we wouldn’t even let them go sign up to go unless they showed us their driver’s license. They had to be at least 50. So that changed a lot of lives. And women, you know, when you drop these skydived or not, but when you walk off that drop zone and you’ve jumped out of an airplane at 15000 feet, you can conquer the world.It gave women so much confidence and they just bloomed. You know, this one woman went home and she said, well, you know, I love this. She said, I loved what it did for me. So I went home and divorced my husband and started my own business. And we’re like, no, no, no, we don’t want that to happen. But, you know, just giving women I love it when we can give women that confidence and that independence and they don’t need. I hate to say this because you’re a man, but they don’t need a man to get where they’re going. And I used to tell my daughter that all the time. I have an only child. And I would say to her, you know, make sure when you grow up you can support yourself and don’t depend on some man to do it. And I happen to have a very happy marriage. I’ve been married for 58 years. So it’s not like I’m anti-man or marriage, but it’s exciting to see women as they age really getting out there and doing what they want to do and not having all the rules.

Peter Bowes: [00:10:34] And you mentioned skydiving and martini in the same breath. Yeah. What did you mean by that?

Jean Ketcham: [00:10:41] Well, I’m a martini drinker. I love martinis.

Peter Bowes: [00:10:44] While you’re skydiving? 

Jean Ketcham: [00:10:46] Yeah, no, no. But, you know, I mean, Peter, it’s so funny because there’s a lot of women that have never had a martini and they and that, of course, is very sexy and it’s very you know, and they’re oh, my gosh, I want to have a martini. And no, you cannot drink before you jump out of that plane, drink or eat, or you would be in trouble throwing up. But it’s funny because afterwards we give them their run and give them their martini. And of course, a lot of them didn’t realize that a martini is straight vodka or gin, you know, the little drop of vermouth. So but they loved it. I mean, if we’d take pictures and yeah, we just called it the martini jump skydive.

Peter Bowes: [00:11:19] So it started like that. But then it blossomed. And you brought in other activities as well?

Jean Ketcham: [00:11:24] Yes, we did. We did a big fashion show.  We had 500 people there. We’ve done several fashion shows and the name of the fashion show was dispelling the myths of fashion. And that was so interesting because and we had like a casting call and picked out these women right off the street. I told them, I said, ‘I don’t care what you look like. I don’t care whether you’re short, whether you’re, you know, tall, whether you are fat, whether you’re skinny. I want you to walk down that runway and I want you to have attitude,’ because to me, it’s all about attitude. You’ve got to have the attitude. And it’s funny Peter because my daughter, who was 40 at the time, early 40s, and she was sitting in the audience and this woman who ended up being kind of like our mascot, she was 80. Patti was 80 years old at the time, and she was a competitive ballroom dancer. And she started doing that at the age of 70, had never done anything like that before. So Patti comes walking out the runway and she has these tight jeans on in this old T-shirt and this jacket. And my daughter looks at me and she said, Mother, I cannot believe that I want that outfit that an 80 year old woman is wearing. And I said, see, honey, that’s the whole point. You know, it doesn’t matter. Age does not matter. You know, I mean, I do think you have you need to have the body for that. But I happen to believe that. But age, come on, does not I don’t care what age you are. He can wear whatever you want to.

Peter Bowes: [00:12:54] And you’ve I know you talked about it in the past, the Grace and Frankie moment. Oh, it’s kind of led you to this realization that there was much more to life.

Jean Ketcham: [00:13:03] Well, I had yeah, I they as far as I’m concerned, they just hit it on the head. I don’t know that. 

Peter Bowes: [00:13:10] This is the Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin, comedy,

Jean Ketcham: [00:13:11] Yeah. Yeah. They were just I mean and they played their own age, you know. I mean, Jane Fonda plays 80 years old on that show and Lily Tomlin plays in the 70s. So that was exciting. But yeah, all the different things that they go through and their experiences and how they felt and that just hit right on target with, you know, and it’s just like Aging but Dangerous, you know, it’s like that is exactly who we are. And we really believe in telling your age and being proud of it. And then I have to tell you another big thing we did. We had a big colonoscopy party and it was so fabulous because we rented a hotel and the people that signed up had a room down there. And we had this big party and we had all the drinks there. You know, what they had to drink and everything. And then the next morning when we had a limo come and pick them up to take them to their appointments and we went with them to hold her hand. And Peter, we saved a life. One of the women, her mother had died of colon cancer and she was scared to death to get a colonoscopy. And she ended up having cancerous polyps and we saved her life. So that was a very good feeling. But a big colonoscopy party was really fun to do. And and then, you know, we’ve had all kinds of things. 

Peter Bowes: [00:14:32] And just just to explain that a little more. So the colonoscopy party, this is the preparation part of…

Jean Ketcham: [00:14:38] Yes.

Peter Bowes: [00:14:38] .. a colonoscopy that those of us of a certain age that have been through this, twice in my case, it’s the worst part is it worse that the actual procedure itself. But you’ve so you’ve had a party to make that side of things a little bit. Yes. Yes. To encourage more people to do it.

Jean Ketcham: [00:14:52] Yeah. Just to make it fun and to do it with somebody and not just be doing it by yourself and running to the restroom by yourself. So yeah, it was just, you know, it was fun.

Peter Bowes: [00:15:03] And a big part of, I think your enthusiasm and your mindset with this is your inner strength. And I know that’s certainly medically you have gone through a lot yourself. You’ve you’ve battled diseases and come out the other side.

Jean Ketcham: [00:15:18] Well, yes, I have,

Peter Bowes: [00:15:19] And presumably. A lot more positive as a result.

Jean Ketcham: [00:15:22] Well, I, I have to tell you, I had cancer and I went into the hospital to check in. And as everybody knows, when you have cancer, they really don’t know how much it spread until they get inside. So I just be talking to the woman is checking me in, and I must have said something. I don’t know what I said, but she said, you know what? You’re going to be just fine. And I said, I am. And she said, Yeah, you know why? And I said, why? Is it because you’re so positive, your positive attitude? And I’m like, well, I must have shown that when I was checking in because and I was fine, you know, I it did turn out OK. But yeah, I’ve had a lot of a lot of surgery, some serious operations along the way. But I don’t you know, I even remember after having cancer, I would go and check in to maybe a new doctor and you have to fill out that thing. And it said, have you had cancer? And I was like, did I really? I mean, it’s like I just kind of put it in the back of my mind and didn’t think about it anymore. So I you know, I think all those experiences, of course, help you get to where you are at the age of 81.

Peter Bowes: [00:16:24] And here you are at 81. It almost feels like that was a different life. That was. Yes. So long ago that you’ve conquered this and you’ve moved on and moved on with a certain amount of gusto.

Peter Bowes: [00:16:35] Yes. And I get a lot of this, Peter, from my dad. He was so optimistic. And I remember up here in Minneapolis, we had a boat out on the lake and he loved to go out on that boat. And he came up here and said, you know, I’d listen to the weather forecast the night before and they’d say, OK, 80 percent chance of rain tomorrow. And I’d say, Daddy, I just don’t think we’re going to be able to go out on the boat because it’s 80 percent chance of rain. And he’d look at me and wink and go like, well, let’s concentrate on that 20 percent and I’ll be darned, as we all know. Got up the next morning, the sun shining, the sky’s blue. And, you know, we went out on the boat. So he was that type of person. I think I got some of that from him. Of course, my mother was just the opposite. She was very, very negative. But but yeah, I just, you know, I don’t know. You just have to find the silver lining in everything, you know. And I think aging is very I think it’s exciting. You have all different things going on that is exciting that you didn’t have when you were younger.

Peter Bowes: [00:17:37] Jean, on that positive note, we’re going to pause for a moment. We’ll come back and continue our conversation in less than a minute. You’re listening to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast.

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Peter Bowes: [00:18:30] I’m talking to Jean Ketcham, founder of Aging but Dangerous. And Jean, since you started this, you’ve had a huge amount of publicity. You’ve also embraced social media in quite a big way. And I’m guessing that when you started this, that is a form of media that you had no idea about.

Jean Ketcham: [00:18:48] You are absolutely right, Peter. I’ve no idea whatsoever. And in fact, we started it. We had a friend that said, now you need to you know, you need to get a Web site. You need to go on Facebook. And I don’t know, you know, my friend and I, we had nothing knew nothing about Facebook. And for many years we didn’t really work. And it just happened. I somebody asked me the other day, said, how’d you get so many followings on on Facebook? And like, you know, it just kind of happened. And now lately in the last I would say last six months, last year, we’ve been doing a lot of you know, I go in and answer people and talk to people and stuff, but up until then, it didn’t do a lot. So and I think we have like I think 130,000 or something followers, it’s it’s it’s really growing. But women are searching for things, Peter. They’re searching.

Peter Bowes: [00:19:39] Yeah, exactly. And that’s, I think, why you’ve garnered such a following. And you do two a week, don’t you.

Jean Ketcham: [00:19:45] Yeah, I have a lot of fun doing these videos. I, I do coffee with Jean on Monday morning on our Facebook page and the dangerous Facebook page. I do it live. And then on Friday afternoon, at four o’clock, I do cocktails with Jean and I have my martini. So I really have fun. I, I, I except I did say the other day, you know, I don’t know, I getting kind of tired of hearing myself talk or you know, seeing myself, but it people really seem to like it and I do have fun doing it. Gives me a chance to get makeup on. I wear crazy, you know, or big earrings. I do all you know, it’s really fun. It gets me, you know, gets me going. So and it’s you know, I do enjoy that. I enjoy the videos.

Peter Bowes: [00:20:30] And I was watching one of your videos the day. And it isn’t just women watching, is it?

Jean Ketcham: [00:20:35] No, it isn’t.

Peter Bowes: [00:20:37] I heard you talking about the couple of guys who live in the same building who told you that they watch every Monday and Friday.

Jean Ketcham: [00:20:42] I know what Peter. And they’re young. They’re like 30, 32. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, I was so touched by that. And I just I just made me feel so good. And then a woman wrote me after that and she said, You have such a such appeal to all ages. She says my two twenty year old daughters, watch your show, you know, watch your videos. So I don’t know. I think it’s but I do love talking to those young people. I think it’s really fun to talk to them. So but yeah, that was impressive.

Peter Bowes: [00:21:16] And I wonder if it tells us something about the way that we’ve all had to live over the last 12 months because of covid. That a lot of people have been confined to their homes and watching videos, especially live videos like yours is is a friend. It’s an outlet.  It’s a way to to curb the loneliness of what we’ve been going through.

Jean Ketcham: [00:21:36] Right. Somebody said to me, wrote me and said, you know, it’s just like sitting down at my kitchen table and having coffee with a friend. So I hope that’s I hope that’s right. I do sometimes run out of things to talk about. Well, not really. But I always wonder if it’s if it’s things people are interested in, but.

Peter Bowes: [00:21:52] And where would you like to go with this next is something that you would still like to achieve with it. It’s obviously blossomed and grown a lot.

Jean Ketcham: [00:21:59] We are definitely world wide. I mean, we have I just interviewed a woman this morning from London and we have women from all over the world. And so we definitely plan to, you know, have chapters everywhere. We’re starting Inner Circle Membership Club that’s going to offer all kinds of wonderful things to women. And then, you know, we have our Facebook private group and then our regular Facebook group. But, yeah, we have big, big plans. We want to get back to the like everyone else, get back to the skydiving. Can’t wait to have the next, you know, the skydive again and just get back to for women getting together. But in the meantime, we’re developing as much of an online source as we can develop. I mean, there’s just going to be lots and lots to offer, cooking classes, you know, exercise classes, meditation, all kinds of things for women can actually get together, see each other and be a part of.

Peter Bowes: [00:23:00] Now, this is what I do is a podcast about human longevity and the aging process and delving into the science and looking at those interventions that we can apply to ourselves to perhaps extend the number of healthy years that we have. I refer to it as Healthspan, where we’re exactly as you are, you’re older, you’re active, you’re involved, you’re physically healthy. And I’m just curious from your experience, your life, and especially the people that you’ve got to talk to through this venture, what do you think the secrets are, apart from the obvious about a good diet and exercise, but growing old but growing old in a very healthy way.

Jean Ketcham: [00:23:37] Well, I, I think whatever for a lot of people are saying now, but I’ve thought up for years is having the right attitude and being really positive. My dad, as I said, was so positive and I know he thought he’s going to live to 110. You know, he was just so, so positive about life and growing older. And I just think that is and I mean, haven’t they done a lot of research? You would know this on people that reach that 100, you know, year mark. And they they have such a good attitude about life. I mean, you just don’t spend your life, you know, being negative and getting pulled down. And I don’t know, you just you know, and I’m a real believer in meditation. I think the meditation to me is so important for people. There’s some kind of meditation, you know, where they can kind of get it together within. But I just think it’s the positive attitude being positive.

Peter Bowes: [00:24:37] And what would you say to your younger self? Imagine you back at 20 years old. What would you say to you at the age of 20 about the aging process and and getting old? Is there any advice that you would give to yourself or indeed anyone of that age?

Jean Ketcham: [00:24:53] You know, what would I know? One thing somebody asked me not long ago, I did an interview and they said, what is the one thing you regret? And I said, you know, the one thing I regret in my life is that I spent so much time and hours. Being upset about my weight, I was like I always say when I got married, I’m going to be, you know, I’m going to end up in a mental institution because I’m 10 pounds overweight. So I look back and I think, oh, yeah, don’t don’t get caught up in all that stuff. You just can’t get caught up in all that. Of course, that, you know, that’s very negative. So I that I look back on and think that’s about the only thing that I feel like that I really spent so much negative energy on was how much do I weigh, you know, and it wasn’t really even as much as the way I looked because I was always able to kind of in the clothing business, always able to kind of camouflage that, you know, I’d wear a lot of flowing silks and that was OK. But it’s I just felt fat and I hated that feeling and I wasn’t even that heavy. So, yeah, too much. You know, I was back to that thing where you look back at pictures when you were younger and you think, gosh darn it, I look pretty darn good. You know, it’s like, why didn’t I enjoy that? So, yeah, it’s just so stupid. Once you get older, you just think, oh my gosh, that was just such a wasted thing, you know? So I definitely say that.

Peter Bowes: [00:26:14] Yeah, well, that’s a good thought. You are clearly very focused and involved in what you’re doing now, and you just explained beautifully your world domination plans, your plans to at least expand this to other countries and make it available to other people. How do you fit it all in? It sounds like you’re extremely busy. Does this dominate your life now?

Jean Ketcham: [00:26:35] Yes, because, I mean, I’ve been doing it for so many years that it’s and I am a pretty hard worker, but it’s just fun for me. I get to meet a lot of people. I do get to do a lot of interviews. I get to be on TV. I get to I get to help women. My biggest you know, I always say, you know what, your mission in life or what were you put on this earth for? And mine was to help women and connect with women. So I, I it really is fun for me, but I do work a lot with it. But, you know, there’s a lot of diversity here too, with Aging But Dangerous, a lot of different things going on. And I had a radio show for four years that was fun. You know, I don’t know. It’s just always something happening.

Peter Bowes: [00:27:20] What kind of radio show? W

Jean Ketcham: [00:27:21] Well, it was just an aging but dangerous radio show. And so.

Peter Bowes: [00:27:24] Oh I see, based on the videos.

Jean Ketcham: [00:27:26] Yeah. Saturday Mornings radio show. And I interviewed people from all over. And, you know, this was like a radio show ran for four years and it stopped about six years ago.

Peter Bowes: [00:27:37] Now one question I often ask people in closing is, and often the younger people, but I asked them to look forward in their lives, maybe 20 years, 30 years about their aspirations for themselves as they grow old, their longevity aspirations. Do you spend much time looking forward and anticipating what you could be like in ten, twenty years time?

Jean Ketcham: [00:27:59] Yes. You know, and I believe in Bucket Lists, I have a bucket list of all kinds of things that I, I still want to do. And I want to train in the spring to hang glide. I want to do it by myself, not with someone. And then I want to go to a culinary school out in California. I want to go to a makeup school. You know, it’s it’s when you get older and your face, you start getting wrinkles. You have to learn how to do makeup with these little, you know, you know, wrinkles. And I just there’s so many things I get excited about. Peter, I and somebody said the other day said, well, you’ve got 25 more years. And I said, I do? And they said, yeah, look at your dad, 105. And I’m like, oh yeah, I do that. Not 25 but 24. But yeah, I have all kinds of things that I, I want to do and want, you know, where I want to be in ten or twenty years. And it’s funny because my doctor said to me the other day, she said, you know, I will keep you out of a nursing home. I will make sure I keep you out of a nursing home if anything would get bad. And I’m like, well, now wait a minute, I may want to go on a nursing home. That’s where things are happening. You know, they’re playing cards and they’re talking to people. I mean, I don’t want to be stuck in an apartment by myself if something happens to my husband. And she said only you would say that all you would want to go in a nursing home if you had to. So I don’t know. There’s so much to look forward to so, so much. I get very excited about my future. 

Peter Bowes: [00:29:24] At 81 years old. There is so much to look forward to. Jean you’re a real inspiration. Thank you very much indeed.

Jean Ketcham: [00:29:29] Well, thank you, Peter. It’s been fun.

Peter Bowes: [00:29:31] It’s been a real pleasure talking to you. And if you’d like to learn more about Aging but Dangerous, I’ll put some details into the show notes for this episode of the podcast. You’ll find them at the Live Long and Master Aging website. That’s LLAMApodcast.com LLAMApodcast.com. The LLAMA podcast is a Healthspan Media Production. If you enjoy what we do, you can rate and review is at Apple Podcasts. You can follow us in social media @LLAMApodcast and direct message me @PeterBowes.  Take care and many thanks for listening.