Can everyone benefit from the race for longevity? 

[00:00:00] Peter Bowes: Reversed. The race for longevity is a new documentary series featuring some of the world’s leading experts in the field of healthy aging. The series is hosted by Nick Engerer, a good friend of this podcast. Over the years, I know from personal experience that Nick will stop at nothing. Well, almost nothing. In terms of personal experimentation, to try to figure out the most effective interventions that we can apply to ourselves to push the boundaries of health and lifespan. Nick isn’t with us today. He’s probably getting his beauty sleep in Australia, where he lives on a very different time zone. But I am pleased to be joined by the series director, the filmmaker and health advocate Charles Mattocks, and Dr. Robert Lufkin, one of the most prominent and respected physicians pursuing the secrets and science of longevity. He is a professor of radiology and a prolific writer, and the author of a new book with the rather provocative title ‘Lies I Taught in Medical School‘. Hello again. Welcome to the Live Long and Master Aging podcast, I’m Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the stories and science behind human longevity. Charles and Robert, it’s great to talk to you.

[00:01:14] Charles Mattocks: Hey, Peter

[00:01:15] Robert Lufkin: Great to be here.

[00:01:16] Peter Bowes: Robert, we’ll get to some of those lies you taught in medical school, I suspect, in a few moments time. But let’s start with you, Charles. You have a great history of telling stories and especially medical and health stories. The field of diabetes in particular. So this is the latest Reversed project for you. What brought you to it specifically? What is your vision of longevity and why did this so pique your interest?

[00:01:45] Charles Mattocks: Well, it started actually probably with keto. I mean, we’ve been doing series for, you know, last, you know, few years here, but we did a keto series and then, you know, keto and carnivore kind of bleed over into each other. So a lot of people that were in carnivore or keto, yeah, I bumped into people who were in carnival and then we did a carnival series and, and then it kind of merged into, you know, working with, Robert here and Dr.Lufkin and, you know, he was we were trying to put together something that we can do together. And, the longevity thing kind of came up and I said, you know what? I’d love to do a series on on longevity. You know, we’ve been kind of putting together some feelers on what we could do together and how we can change the world together. And Robert, thank goodness for him. He, he helped open really a ton of doors. I mean, he introduced us to, you know, a lot of the people that are on the series right now and, and some of the sponsors and just he believed and, and and we worked together really nice and and that’s how we got here with longevity.

[00:02:56] Peter Bowes: Is it a project that you approach with essentially a blank piece of paper? In other words, an open mind. You talk about keto carnivore, which for some people in the sphere of longevity is way off the scale. I’m thinking of the vegans and the vegetarians and the pescatarians. Did you go into it with an open mind that let’s see what works?

[00:03:17] Charles Mattocks: Exactly. Because, you know, once again, I’m not a medical professional, even though I’m an advocate and I love helping lives and I’m more of a director, you know, to the people. So I think of myself as having a vision that enables people like Robert and Nick and other people that were featured, let’s say, on the longevity series or the other series, to really have the information. So I kind of do go in it, you know, just really to tell the stories. It’s, it’s while I, while I, you know, practice low carb and probably 95%, you know, meat based. I’m open. I just want to hear and understand and I’m learning as well as creating a series. I’m learning from Doctor Ove, Dr Lufkin or all the amazing people that are featured on the series. So it’s something that I’m learning to as well, because I was diagnosed with type two diabetes. That’s really what, you know, prompted me to create this whole series. I wanted to create a platform where people who are dealing with issues had almost a one stop shop of the modalities and having the experts, in one place, under one roof for a few days, where they could be fully educated, where, you know, they didn’t have to have a test today and then go back to see the doctor three months later to follow up on the test, or then have to navigate the system, but have a place where they could really get this deep information, information in a loving way, in an educational way. that allowed them to be inspired, but educated because, you know, inspiration is a big part of of making change. A lot of people aren’t, you know, it’s it’s hard. I was just telling somebody today, I’m like, man, this, this life can be tough sometimes, you know, every day dealing with the day to day. And, you know, you got to try to eat, right. You got to try to drink right. You got to deal with family issues, financial issues. so inspiration is a big part of what we’re doing here too, as well.

[00:05:20] Peter Bowes: And Robert, the race for longevity in the title of the docu series. In terms of a race, is there a winning post that you have in your mind? In other words, what are we racing towards? 

[00:05:33] Robert Lufkin: Well anytime we talk about increasing longevity, we also talk about increasing healthspan. So just to be clear, increasing how long we live is, is healthy years and one thing I thought of that that changed my thinking about this is that a lot of people, you know, retire at age 60, 65 and they, you know, spend five years on the golf course and hang out with their grandchildren. And you, you approach them and say, how would you like to live another 40 years? How would you like to live another 50 years? And thinking of that, you know, I mean, golf is great, no judgment. And, you know, grandkids are great, no judgment. But a lot of people are thinking, well, that that’s not all that appealing. But if we think about longevity as, an opportunity to grow as people and to change the purpose in our lives, think about how how we change from age 20 to age 40, let’s say, or age 50. Take that personal growth and then begin it at age 60 to age 100. And imagine that we could all grow as people and add wisdom and experience onto our lives, and not just extend a few more years on the golf course, but actually enter a new phase of our lives where we transformed into elders with wisdom that can actually change, change humanity. And that’s the real exciting part of longevity for me. And that’s, that’s one of the goalposts.

[00:07:08] Peter Bowes: And, Robert, what do you think is possible? Because I think some people really get confused about what we are aspiring to. And I’m talking numbers here and and age. People think in terms of, let’s say, the average lifespan in the Western world, which is still somewhere in the 70s or getting up to 80. In fact, I think lifespan, average lifespan in the last couple of years, certainly looking at the United States has actually dropped. I know Covid had a big impact on that, but in terms of potential lifespan that encompasses healthspan in terms of the number of years that we remain healthy, free of chronic diseases, what do you think is a realistic aspiration?

[00:07:50] Robert Lufkin: Yeah, there’s there’s a lot of different opinion on this. And and the honest answer is nobody really knows. But I’ll give you m thoughts I think for for human longevity with our current technology there appears to be a hard stop around 120 or so just because that’s what we recorded. And but I think, you know, getting close to that is doable if we optimize lifestyle and these other factors. But that’s really changing also because we’re entering into new tools that were never available before for our lifestyle, things like some new new types of drugs like rapamycin and either, you know, metformin, acarbose more advanced drugs. We’re looking at stem cells and partial epigenetic programing. We’re looking at things that have never really been applied to humanity. So I think that hard stop at 120 can actually be moved further on down from there. And how much further? I think it’s I think it’s an open question, but I will acknowledge we’re in the greatest longevity revolution we’ve ever seen. And the last ten years have been remarkable. And I think the next ten years are going to be even more or more amazing. So I can’t wait.

[00:09:09] Peter Bowes: So, Charles, I think in this docu series, what you tried to do is essentially capture some of that enthusiasm that we’ve just heard there from Robert in terms of what the potential is you headed with Robert and Nick and the other experts to Costa Rica. Why did you choose there to make this series?

[00:09:28] Charles Mattocks: Well, we’ve been shooting the last few series in different parts of the world, and I noticed that, people let down their guard. You know, when you are get flown to a beautiful tropical place, you you tend to to feel good. Eat good. relax. You know that you’re there for something special. And, Costa Rica, of course, you know, is known for having a Blue Zone. It’s it’s a beautiful tropical place. And, I just wanted a nice destination visually, that could look beautiful. Not only telling the story, but, but sharing the beautiful landscape of the country.

[00:10:07] Peter Bowes: So tell me what you did while you were there. Clearly, you you did a lot of sitting around and talking in depth, but what sort of what was the goal of those conversations and what can we expect to see as this series moves on?

[00:10:20] Charles Mattocks: You know, for me it was more about really not talking over the average person’s heads. I wanted to kind of create something that, you know, people like myself could sit down and really understand. and it’s a tight it’s a tight rope because, you have to make it intelligent enough. Right? So you have to have those conversations or deep conversations because people who are in the space, if you look at, you know, videos on YouTube that have, let’s say, half a million views, it might just be someone talking about longevity, and they are talking about it for an hour and a half, and that’s all they’re doing is just. And people are engaged in that video. So you have to, you know, try to make it entertaining. Also. but informative is, is is a tight wire because, you know, people I think sometimes might look at it and think, all right, well we’re going to see a, you know, something like a, you know, reality show or a reality series or a docu reality series. I think of this as more as a almost like a symposium of beautiful minds came together in a place to let down their guards of a little bit, get, get to know the people behind the series two as well. Right. Because, you know, even though Robert’s very prominent on social media and public and, and things like that, you know, how many people really know Andrea, you know or really know Nick in a more personal level. So, you know, we were able to, to, to bring together a mix of, of beautiful minds that were able to share it in a way that anyone can digest it. And that’s really the important thing, I think when I was looking into longevity, I saw a lot of, you know, the big conferences going on and, you know, seminars going on. And I’m like, you know what? We this is something that we’ve got to get put into people’s hands right now, at least to create that energy and keep the door open. So it’s not just in, in rooms where most of us, you know, won’t enter. So I think that’s what we, we did here. And it’s just the start. I mean, I have plans for, for other series, you know, around longevity, working on a series where – called Reverse the Church – where we go into a church to change the health of a whole congregation where I want to implement, you know, longevity so we could see it as something that’s not just, um, like, you know, Robert said, you know, there’s the here and now, but also the future. So I want to implement some of what’s here. And now that we can, we can work with.

[00:12:52] Peter Bowes: You mentioned Andrea, that’s Dr. Andrea Meyer. And she said something very interesting in the trailer that I’ve seen for this series, she says.

[00:13:01] Dr. Andrea Meyer: Because in the end, it should not be for the richest to be much more healthier. But everybody should be able to use all the markers to test themselves. How do I age at this moment in time, and how can I intervene and make myself better?

[00:13:17] Peter Bowes: Longevity shouldn’t just be for the rich. Longevity should be for everyone. Everyone should be able to benefit from the interventions and the science that is rapidly evolving. Robert, there is often, I think, a sense that some of these interventions, which are potentially quite expensive, are only something that those people who are rich, maybe those who have a concierge doctor who don’t use their health insurance, are at that level of health care, are only going to to benefit from the kind of science that we’re hearing about in series like this. What do you think of that? And what can be done to make sure that we are appealing to everyone and potentially helping everyone?

[00:14:02] Robert Lufkin: Yeah, I think that’s a great point, Peter, that the most cutting-edge interventions but also the most ones with, with the unknowns that, that we don’t know about are oftentimes very, very expensive. And out of the price range of the average person. But I would submit and the whole thing I talk about in my book is that one of the most powerful techniques for longevity that we can all embrace is the choices we make in our own lifestyle. And these effects can in in for most of us, I think, outweigh even the most expensive interventions with stem cells or other things. In other words, the metabolic benefits of appropriate nutrition, appropriate sleep, appropriate exercise, and also stress and a sense of purpose can outweigh even the very expensive interventions. So I’m hopeful and I’m optimistic. These are accessible to everyone and something we can all start doing now that that have proven effects on our longevity, these expensive things. In most cases, we don’t really know if they work yet. And you know, we’re we’re experimenting also. But lifestyle has been proven to dramatically reduce the, the onset and even reverse these chronic diseases that determine our longevity. So I’m hopeful for that.

[00:15:38] Peter Bowes: And would you agree with me, Robert, that the most potent longevity drug is exercise, and exercise is something at its most basic, and I’m thinking of going for a long walk for a long hike at some point during the day. Several times a week is perhaps the thing that’s going to do us the most good. And it is free to all.

[00:15:56] Robert Lufkin: Yeah, I think exercise you basically it’s one of the four pillars and maybe the most important one. You know, I would I would not exclude nutrition either and the right food choices and then and then also sleep and stress. As I mentioned, I think we need to include all of those. But exercise is is definitely right up there.

[00:16:18] Peter Bowes: And Charles I was actually quite pleased to hear you say that we should think of this series as more of a symposium than a reality series. That word reality kind of scares me a little bit sometimes when I think in terms of the potential for television or for film, that it isn’t always based in reality, I think symposium more accurately describes, hopefully, what you’re doing. On a more broader question of perception in the media, or perhaps how the mainstream media perceives longevity, science, and the kind of work that you’re doing. And and I use the word mainstream media kind of reservedly as well, because it’s been politicized to some extent. But I mean, general television, the broadsheet newspapers, some of the magazines, how they view longevity, science. There is just a fear sometimes from, from my perspective, that people like yourselves, like me, are viewed as those who want to just live forever, that we have aspirations for eternal life and to keep on going and keep on going. And I try to emphasize, no, it’s not about that. It’s about healthspan. It’s about the here and now and enjoying those healthy years. But I see that there’s a challenge sometimes to bring people on board to understand truly what longevity is all about.

[00:17:33] Charles Mattocks: Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that the tides have changed, you know, even if you look at, there’s a lot of online people who are, who are speaking about health, whether it’s doctors or just experts and professionals, and they’re getting millions of views. You know, people are looking outside of the mainstream system that, you know, just seems to fail us all. I mean, I know Robert posts a lot about American Diabetes Association, and I always, retweet it and I’m blown away by some of the things that they’re putting out there. And, you know, so people, the tides have turned. And I think that the conversation is very important. Right. And while, you know, longevity may be something that the average person really doesn’t, you know, look at or think of that that can affect them today. And all the science that’s coming around the corner and all the deep conversations that are being had. I think that opening up the door to be able to really explain this a little bit more and make it a little bit more simplified and let people understand that with simple changes, you could totally change your health outcome. And we’ve seen that on our shows. And so I think for me, that’s really what it’s about is, is I feel like we’re at the start of Bitcoin here that I missed out on where we’re doing something really exciting in, in a field that, you know, I’m privileged to even just put a toe in and have a small part to play in this. And I’m excited about the future because there are some really powerful things coming around the corner and that are here now that we need to see.

[00:19:17] Peter Bowes: And, Charles, maybe you could just give us a little teaser as to what to expect from these shows. I’m thinking, perhaps as someone who isn’t a scientist or a doctor, just like myself, having listened to what experts like Robert have had to say during the the many interviews that you did for this series, was there something that really piqued your interest and made you think, well, actually, I haven’t heard that before. That could be a real life changer for some people. Maybe. Indeed. There’s something that you heard that has caused you to change your lifestyle and your approach to the way that you live, with your longevity in mind.

[00:19:53] Charles Mattocks: It really has. Like I said, starting with, with keto and then going to carnivore, because even when I started the carnivore series, I thought well before I started the carnivore series and heard about carnivore, I thought these people were insane. I’m like bacon and eggs and steak. He’s, you know, I’ve got high cholesterol over here. So I have learned so much along the way. And then longevity was almost like a natural progression. And, I’m continuing to grow. And like I said, there are so many people. There are millions and millions of people who are trying to figure out how they can not just live longer, but live healthier, longer. Right. So I don’t want to, you know, I think Robert had said that, you know, I don’t want to live till, till 100, and I’m sickly, deathly sickly to a hundred – I want to be able to to live, you know, very healthy. until I’m a hundred.

[00:20:46] Peter Bowes: We could probably do a very long conversation. An entire series. Just on the issue of cholesterol. It’s such a complicated subject and so many people misunderstand some of the issues in terms of cholesterol, which which leads me, Robert, maybe just to ask you, I mentioned it at the beginning of the conversation about those things that you taught in medical school that perhaps you wouldn’t teach now you refer to them as as lies. I’m thinking these are some of those big issues, that there is a common misunderstanding about where we stand now and what the science tells us.

[00:21:22] Robert Lufkin: Yeah, there’s I think there’s a one of the common misunderstandings that’s a theme throughout the book. And that underlies longevity itself is, the importance of metabolic health and metabolic health underlies obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer’s and mental illness. And there are common drivers for that. That can be we can improve our chances with these diseases and even in some cases, reverse them when we establish a metabolically healthy lifestyle. And the final outcome of that is when when we decrease our chances of these diseases, we actually live longer. So this metabolically healthy lifestyle is contributing to our longevity. And and that was an exciting message that that was a wake up call for me. And I think I wasn’t aware of it, even though I, I am a professor at a medical school and teach people, it’s deeply disturbing that many of my colleagues are still not aware of it, and still I don’t think it gets enough attention and enough emphasis.

[00:22:35] Peter Bowes: I’m often astounded by I interview a lot of people like you, a lot of eminent doctors who will tell me that when they think back to their days at medical school, how little time they spent on nutrition, what to eat. I mean, some have said maybe we spent 30 minutes on nutrition, which is absolutely astonishing. Has that been your experience and are things changing there?

[00:22:59] Robert Lufkin: Yeah, unfortunately they’re there. We still spend too little time on nutrition, and the vacuum that’s created by the nutrition is filled by the junk food companies that provide education for dietitians and everyone else, and even the food pyramid, which famously, you know, recommended our food choices really in the US and around the world for decades, was developed by individuals who Nina Teicholz has recently reported on as having strong ties with junk food and `the food pyramid, the the the bottom line of the food pyramid, which is what we’re supposed to eat the most of, if you look at it, is all junk food. It’s cereals, grains and and baked goods.

[00:23:47] Peter Bowes: Charles, let me ask you this. Just broadening this out a little bit as a filmmaker. The film industry is I’m based in Los Angeles. I understand the difficult times that so many people are going through just to try to get productions on the road, just to try to get a production completed. The events of last year, with a couple of strikes involving writers and actors. Certainly didn’t help, but the film industry is going through quite a difficult time at the moment in trying to make films like this docu series. Like this. How easy or difficult has it been for you to get the necessary support? Clearly, you need financial support for something like this as well. In terms of the wider community, have people easily come on board?

[00:24:31] Charles Mattocks: Yeah, I mean, people love what we do. I mean, there’s really no one doing what we what we do. Of course, there’s always challenges and obstacles. Sometimes you create a piece or we sit down and we say, you know what? We want to focus. Because right now we’re focusing on menopause, a series on menopause. And while we’ve got some of the top experts and doctors and menopause, you would think that the floodgates would open and all of these big companies would be throwing money at you to do a series on menopause. But then you look at the state of menopause and see that there’s little to no advocacy and little to no information on menopause, out there. So trying to trying to turn that corner and cross that bridge can be a little bit difficult, but I’m relentless and, you know, I don’t stop and literally, I’m up, you know, night and day, getting good sleep, but working really hard because to me, it’s not just about, just making a series. This is, you know, my life was impacted when I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, and I had to make a change. you know, so my series are really about things that are meaningful to me. You know, my father died in 2014 from cancer, so we made a cancer series. you know, the menopause one is something that was close to a good friend of mine who was dealing with it, who didn’t know what was going on because, from emotional issues with menopause and things like that too, as well. So, this is this is a labor of love. And, you know, I’m not expecting to be the next Oprah Winfrey or Tyler Perry with it, but we can keep the lights on and we can do a few things, but it’s really about leaving a mark and leaving something for the next generation because, you know, people, people really, at times. And what I have seen is that and I know, Robert could probably speak on it, is that I don’t think people take their health as serious as they should. And for the ones that really do want the information – there’s a lot of information out there, and we want to be a part of continuing that, but also inspire those who really should be taking their health serious. And you know, I we have series on diabetes and people know, you know, I’m a big diabetes advocate, but I get messages after someone was diagnosed and Charles, what do I do? I have diabetes and the fact that they come to me and I’m not even a doctor, it tells you the shambles that the health care system is in and that this, this message by people like, by, Doctor Lufkin is so needed. because it’s it’s life saving.

[00:27:11] Peter Bowes: I hear that so much about, to use your words, the shambles that the health care system or you could say systems indeed around the world are in people. Describe the. Certainly here in the United States, the health care system has been broken. Whenever I hear that, Robert, maybe you could pick this up. I always want to know in the next sentence, well, really, what can we do about it? And there’s obviously no one thing that we can do. This is going to be a mass effort to repair that broken health care system. But where do we start?

[00:27:43] Robert Lufkin: Yeah, I let me, if I may clarify that my opinion on that a little bit. I think the the health care system, the so-called Western medicine has revolutionized our lives in the 20th century, made our lives better with public health and sanitation and infectious diseases. They developed medicines and surgeries that that really transformed our lives. And even today, if I get hit by a car out in Front Street, I want to I want a blood transfusion, I want to get my splenectomy. And Western medicine has a role to play. But I think the problem with Western medicine is in the 21st century, 80% of our costs are spent on these so-called chronic diseases that have exploded, the ones we’ve talked about. And the problem is the pills and the surgery may be life saving and mask prevent the symptoms of these these chronic conditions, in most cases, they don’t actually control the underlying progression of these diseases. Don’t get it. What’s called the root cause. And and I think that’s the problem with Western medicine today when we try to take these things that were so effective in the 20th century and then apply them to this new, this, this explosion of chronic diseases that drive our longevity, really, that’s the problem.

[00:29:09] Peter Bowes: I think that’s a really interesting point, and that it is not as simple as it isn’t as black and white as fixing a broken health care system. I think most of us certainly I can say this from my own experience. I owe a lot to the regular health care system that we’re all used to, our personal doctor, our health insurance companies that clearly cannot be dismissed. I think the challenge, Charles, isn’t it, is to try to bring the best of of all worlds. And clearly there’s a fiscal issue, a financial issue to sort out. But in terms of philosophy and ways of thinking that we need to bring the best of what we’ve got to, some people call it healthcare 2.0. We’re moving into 3.0 that we need to bring the new science and the innovations and the understanding of healthspan to the traditional side as well. And hopefully we can all benefit from just a bringing together a meeting of minds.

[00:30:07] Charles Mattocks: Yeah, yeah. I also think we need a little bit of vanity. And I say that because when I was diagnosed with type two diabetes, one of the first things I did is when I came home, I looked in the mirror and I said to myself, Lord have mercy, what has happened to me? And I needed to lose probably about 25 pounds. And, you know, so I think that at times we really need to, you know, digest this from a physical, mental, spiritual, emotional level, space of of overall health and, and taking, taking this gift of life very serious. And, so, you know, vanity at times is a good thing. I want to look like I want to look and feel like I was when I was 18 years old. I’m boxing now, right? And, I’m in there with guys 20 years, 20, 25 years younger than me. And I’m like, all right, you know what? I’m going to keep this going. Because number one, that that that me wanting to have that that like you talked about taking that nice long walk, hike. we gotta we gotta move, we gotta move, we gotta we, you know, if you can’t go out there and in your 40s and 50s and play basketball with your son and your grandchildren, You gotta, you know, something’s gotta change. You know, if you if you’re if you’re driving around. I saw somebody driving the other day. They were like, you know, severely overweight and smoking a cigarette in the car. And I’m just like, you know, we’ve got to take our health serious. You know, many.

[00:31:35] Peter Bowes: People mentioned children in conversations like this. I often ask, what is the reason, really in your heart for pursuing longevity? And the reason? The answer often involves what I want to be with my children, but my grandchildren and my great grandchildren as well. Not only to physically interact with those younger people, but to share the wisdom of my life or your life. And that is it’s not always a selfish ambition to live to a great age. It’s usually a much bigger.

[00:32:04] Charles Mattocks: Picture, I think. So I’ll jump in. I was going to say, is that no, you’re right. I mean, and I think as we get older, we’ll, you know, I think in when you’re in your 40s, you’re like, oh, the 40s is the new 20s, you know, and in the 50s or the 50s is the new 30s, you know, and, you know, by the time you’re 80, you like, the 80s is the new 50s, you know. So I think that, you know, we want to live and, and we want to see our children grow. We want to see them grow healthy. and I think that’s that’s a big, a big turning point right now.

[00:32:37] Peter Bowes: Just a final word from you, Robert. Having gone through this, having met and talked to all of the other experts, many of them experts in areas that are a little bit different to yours, what did you learn? What did you take away from this that perhaps the audience will latch on to as well?

[00:32:56] Robert Lufkin: Well, I think Charles is a master, a magician. He created a wonderful environment down there in Costa Rica that, you know, was was truly magical. And the interactions I had with with these other experts in longevity, as well as our guests, which are regular people who are going through the process of understanding their own health, just, just gave me such hope for the future that I think, the future is very, very bright, that these people can, can learn from it. And we saw before our eyes how they reversed their own health conditions. And you could see as they’re going forward that they were changing their lives and their longevity. And it was it was very uplifting for me. I was very, very optimistic. And I walked away knowing in my heart that the best is yet to come.

[00:33:48] Peter Bowes: And I think that’s a great way to end this. Hope for the future is what we all need. Robert, Charles, really good to talk to you. Best of luck with this. I can’t wait to see it. Thank you so much.

[00:33:58] Robert Lufkin: Thanks, Peter.