Lives well lived, at every age

This interview with Sky Bergman was recorded on July 18, 2024.

00:00 Sky Bergman

My attitude about life just got better. And it’s certainly about aging. I mean, it’s now something that I look forward to. I cherish every wrinkle that I get and all the gray hairs. Before the media had me thinking that I had to worry about those things and now I embrace it and I look forward to each and every moment. I am much more accepting of myself the way that I am than I was before I started working on this

Peter Bowes: What can we learn from people whose lives were well-lived?

Sky Bergman’s film, titled Lives Well-Lived, is a hugely inspiring documentary about the joys of growing old, the value of wisdom, and appreciation of life. It is now a book with more valuable insights into how we live our lives and interact with others. Hello again. Welcome to the Live Long and Master podcast. I’m Peter Bowes, this is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity. When we first met Sky Bergman on this podcast six years ago, six years, Sky, would you believe, episode 63, if you want to look through our archives and listen again, Sky was then in the process of launching her film, now in her book, Lives Well Lived Generations: Resilience, Positivity and Purpose at every age, purpose at every age, she goes behind the scenes of her documentary and focuses on the goal of bringing generations together. Intergenerational connections, which have been shown to have a powerful impact on the vitality of older people. Sky, it’s great to talk to you

01:48 Sky Bergman
Thank you so much for having me. And I can’t believe it’s been so many years since we last spoke.

Peter Bowes
It’s extraordinary, and for both of us, for everyone, I suppose, the last six years, so much has happened. Of course, the pandemic nestled there right in the middle, but for you, it’s been quite a journey, hasn’t

Sky Bergman
It really has been. mean, I went from, I was teaching full time. am now retired and a from teaching and a professor emeritus and busier than ever working on two other films. And as you mentioned, just finished up my book and working on projects at connect generations. So it’s been a very full six years.

Peter Bowes
The book is a great follow -up to the documentary. Just before we dive into it, just give me a little bit of an idea of your career to the point that you started to focus on this subject. Because I think there’s, to some extent, there was a lot of chance involved in the early stages of the film project. But before that, you were a long-time teacher, weren’t you?

02:47 Sky Bergman
Absolutely. So I actually had a business degree in finance and my last semester of school I took a photography class for fun and I realized my goodness, this is what I was born to do. I love this and I thankfully I went to my photo professor at the time and I said to him I want your job. Basically. I want to be a photo professor at a university and

took me under his wing and I got into graduate school and ended up being a professor of photography and video at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo for 30 years. And I was really lucky because, you know, that was in my twenties. And I think I realized early on, I didn’t want to settle. I wanted to follow my passion, even though, you I never let money stand in the way of decisions that I made. And even though it seemed like a crazy decision to give up finance,

I do have a BS degree in finance, but to give that up to go into art and to go into photography, you know, I knew if I didn’t do it at that point in my life, when would I do it? If I started settling in my life in my twenties, what would the rest of my life be like? And so, I, just pursued that and was lucky enough to have a wonderful career, worked for a number of magazines and did book covers and taught, which I love teaching. I feel like that’s the cycle of giving and receiving when you’re teaching and in the classroom and so I had a wonderful career teaching and now because of the Lives Well Lived film, that has been the next phase of my life, I guess, the next career, which is all about filmmaking. And I think for me, it brings together all the things that I love, which is storytelling, visual, and you can see I’ve got some guitars in the background. I love music, so bringing together all of those things to come up with this wonderful career for the next phase of my life, which is creating films.

04:39 Peter Bowes
And I’m curious did you at any time during that long career, obviously focusing on photography, on video. Did you think about the issues that you have subsequently gone on to certainly make the documentary about and write the book about? And those issues are aging, we’re going to talk about intergenerational connections, but aging in particular and the process of aging, was it something that you spent more than a couple of seconds thinking about?

Sky Bergman
Well, I think that the film and my foray into the aging space was very organic and very authentic. I was looking at approaching 50 and looking for positive role models of aging in the media and just not finding them. Everything that I was seeing was advertisements about creams that you could use to stay more youthful. I wanted to look my age. I didn’t want to look more youthful. I wanted to look the way that I was. I wanted to find people that were aging in a positive way. And at that point, I’m 58 now, so this was about 12 years ago when I started my exploration. There really wasn’t, I’m thankful now there are more positive role models of aging, but at that point there really weren’t. And I was lucky enough in my own family to have a grandmother who was my role model, my hero, my inspiration, and she was turning 100 right around the time that I started kind of thinking about approaching 50. And I mean, she didn’t start working out at the gym until she was 80. So she was living proof that it’s never too late to start something new, including going to the gym and working out. And, she really set me on a quest where I started interviewing people that were 75 plus. I spent four years interviewing 40 people with a collective life experience of 3000 years for the lives will live film. And I think through that process, really forever changed my life. mean, now I’m interested in aging and positive aging and what we can do to connect generations. And it all started with a love of my grandmother, with looking inward at my own journey and what that would be like. And I always tell my students, the more personal, the more universal the message becomes. And I feel like because this was such a personal project, it has really touched and resonated with so many

06:55 Peter Bowes
And you had something of a lightbulb moment, didn’t you? During that time with your grandmother when she was around 99 years old, just approaching 100 and as you say, going to the gym.

Sky Bergman
Yeah, I think that the light bulb moment was, there are other people out there like my grandmother and I want to highlight them and who are they and where can I find them? And I quite literally sent an email blast out to my friends, family, and all the students that had taught over the years at the university and said, here’s a little clip of my grandmother at the gym. And if you have somebody like her in your life, please nominate them for this project. And I was inundated by heartwarming nominations. those people are out there. I just don’t think that they had been up to that point really highlighted. I think what we had seen in the media were all the negative aspects of aging and not the positive ones. And let’s face it, we’re all aging every day. That’s the one thing we have in common. So we should be celebrating it rather than saying that we want to avoid it because that’s the one thing that’s not avoidable. And it’s the one thing we have in common

08:01 Peter Bowes
So the film, as I indicated at the beginning, is an excellent documentary. It is deeply moving in so many ways, and I often recommend it to people. still out there for anyone to watch if they want to do that. But the book takes the issues that you delved into quite deeply in the film much further, and you focus in on this idea of connectivity between generations. So just in starting to talk about the book, I was curious to start with… what prompted you to want to write a book having made a film? Because I know, having been involved in projects like this myself, sometimes you get to the end of what is a huge, time -consuming project, and for all there’s a huge amount of achievement there, you’re actually glad it’s over and you can maybe move on to the next thing. So why did you want to continue with this theme?

08:48 Sky Bergman
Well, I agree that many times we get to the end of a project and we are done, we are over it. But I think with the Lives Well Lived film, had so many people, especially during the pandemic, that reached out to me that were so deeply moved and touched by the film. And we’re asking for a book, you know, what’s next? Will you write a book? Will you write about your experience making the film and all the things you learned along the way?

I was reticent to do that. I’m dyslexic. So writing is not an easy thing for me. It’s much easier for me to put it in film form. And I think that’s why I started with a film, but I had so many requests that I thought sometimes you can’t avoid what’s right in front of you. And so I sat down and started writing and really wrote not only about the lessons that I learned, from the people in the film, but also the lessons that I learned along the way of making a film, being a first time filmmaker, how to fund something, how to think outside the box and really trying to make it something that people could learn from as they’re reading it. So there was my story, but also the story of all the things that were really the people in the film have in common, like a sense of purpose and resilience and positivity and community. And how can you achieve that in your own life? Cause I think it’s one thing to read about it and another thing to have some action plan of some ways that you can achieve that in your own life. And then that’s the first half of the book, but the second half of the book is really devoted to connecting generations. We live in such an age segregated world at the moment. And I feel like the world is suffering as a result. I was personally lucky enough to grow up in a four generational household. My great grandmother lived to be in her, to her late nineties. And I was 19 when she passed away. And of course I had my grandmother and my parents and I, you know, I was so lucky, but I know I’m an anomaly. And I also realize, especially working with college students, that many young people don’t have a connection to an older adult in their lives. And what can we do to break those stereotypes about ageism? Well, bring generations together so we understand each other. It’s a lot harder to have a stereotype or an ism about another group of people if we know somebody and we have a friend from that other group of people. And so we’ve been working on projects at the university doing that. But then I started interviewing people around the globe that are doing amazing work connecting generations, whether it’s throu gh music, through an intergenerational symphony or through climate change or cogenerational housing. There’s a vast array of people that are doing really interesting work and connecting generations.

11:27 Peter Bowes
And you pose the question in the book, which I thought was very insightful. You said, just paraphrasing, when did you last have a meaningful conversation with older people? And I guess if a lot of people sit back and think about that, the answer could be, well, it was quite a long time ago, because it’s not something that a lot of people do on a regular basis.

11:48 Sky Bergman
I think that’s right. We tend to stay within our own community of friends. We don’t sometimes break out of that mold, but I tell people, you know, it’s as simple as even if you’re at the grocery store talking to somebody that’s a different age group than you, think, you know, making that a conscious decision instead of shying away from somebody that’s a different age group than you really trying to make the concerted effort to connect. And I think when people ask me, well, how, do I get involved with something that is intergenerational? I hope that the book provides some framework for that because it gives you some ideas of some organizations that are doing really interesting work. But I would also say just having a conversation with somebody, or, I have a potluck dinner once a month where I have people from the ages of 20 to in their nineties that come. I think doing things that bring different generations together doesn’t have to be a heavy lift is what I found, but it’s so vitally important to do that. It’s just, you know, looking around in your own life and how can you make a change, I think is the first step.

12:52 Peter Bowes
And I think a point always to be stressed is that there are benefits for everyone. So there are two parties, there’s a younger person, there’s an older person interacting in whatever way. It could be a quick conversation at the supermarket or it could be more of an involved longer term relationship. But both sides are benefiting hugely from the other’s wisdom. And yes, I think older people can actually benefit from the wisdom of younger people as they see life today in the 21st century.

13:21 Sky Bergman
Absolutely, and that’s one of the things that I love about the projects that we we work on is that there’s bilateral communication So it’s you know I think in the past there was this idea of older people being mentors and it was the young people that were getting everything from the older adult that they maybe were paired with I think that that is out the window I think it’s really this bilateral sort of communication and back and forth of wisdom that goes on because you know, think what … there’s ages of both directions people that are younger sometimes are discriminated against because they’re not old enough for they haven’t had the experience but yet sometimes what they bring to the table is a really new and creative ideas in a different way of thinking of things because they haven’t done the same thing over and over again and so i think it’s so important to really take everyone’s point of view into account and to not have it be a mentor situation, but to have it be an equal on equal footing. think when we bring generations

14:21 Peter Bowes
I was quite struck by an experience I had recently. It was a round table discussion involving people of different generations. There were young people, 20s, 30s, and older people, 60 plus. And the conversation was about alcohol and giving up drinking. This is not a table of people who particularly had a huge problem with alcohol, but in some cases had decided that they just didn’t want to drink it anymore. The thing that struck me was the attitude of the, at least one of the younger people. And I asked this person about the response of his friends when he told them that he didn’t drink alcohol. And he said, well, people are very accommodating these days. It isn’t really an issue anymore for younger people, and it’s often seen as a virtue if you don’t drink alcohol. And it was the older people in that group who were actually surprised at hearing that point of view, because it was something generationally that they hadn’t experienced. They’d experienced peer pressure to drink alcohol and it that’s an example in terms of the the older generation actually learning something from someone 50 years younger.

15:25 Sky Bergman
Absolutely, I think that that happens quite often. And I think one of the things where I think intergenerational projects and connections work the best is when there is a reason that those two groups of people are coming together. So they’re trying to achieve something. Like I said, whether it’s a symphony where they’re playing music together or some kind of an action that they’re trying to do to achieve something together, the barriers of age somehow disappear and they’re working towards a common goal. And I think that’s where the friendships become really deep and meaningful. when the projects that I’ve worked on, of course, at the end of the projects, usually the students and the older adults will say, you know, they realize that they have far more in common than their differences and really the only differences are age. And of course, that’s, what we, what we hope will be achieved is that there’s far more understanding and openness than just saying, you’re the other and we’re the other. And so we don’t mix. And when you bring people together for a common goal, that disappears and people work together to make something happen and how beautiful that is when that happens.

16:33 Peter Bowes
Well, talking of common goals, common threads through our lives is something that I take from the book and from the film as well, that you have identified these common threads that go together to produce a fulfilling life.

16:47 Sky Bergman
Yeah, and I think, you know, the subtext of the book is resilience, positivity, and purpose at every age. And I think the reason for that is we don’t want to just have that when we’re later in life. The earlier we learn all these things, the better off our whole lives will be. And so when in interviewing all the people that I interviewed for the film, one of the things that I, you know, there were like really three common elements, I think that they all had running throughout all the interviews that I did, which was the first was having a sense of purpose. And I think that a sense of purpose is so vitally important and it can change over time. I think that’s the other thing that I learned. And I see that in the college students that I worked with a lot of times if they’re in the midst of changing majors or they don’t know what they want to do, they don’t have that sense of purpose and they feel a little, they don’t feel grounded. I think, so, you know, I see that in young people as well people when they are getting ready to retire. And many times we define who we are by the job that we did. And all of a sudden when we don’t have that definition anymore and we can’t say we are, are a this like in my case, where I’m a professor. Well, now I’m a professor emeritus, you know, I still define myself by that. When you lose that, you lose your footing and your grounding. And so having that sense of purpose and knowing that it changes over time, I think is really important allowing for that change. And I think the second that really all the people in the film had in common was that they had a good support system, a good community around us. And we’re seeing studies where isolation, social isolation is actually more dangerous to our health than smoking cigarettes. And that to me is amazing. And I saw that certainly throughout the film that all the people that I had interviewed for the film, weren’t loners. They were definitely making an effort. And sometimes it takes an to have that community, that sense of community. So it doesn’t just happen overnight. It’s something that you have to work for, and it’s not necessarily family. A lot of times it could be friends, but again, it’s making that effort to have that sense of community so you feel like you belong. And I think thirdly is really having this sense of positivity and resilience. I think those two things go hand in hand. So when I talk about resilience, it’s going through maybe some traumatic experiences and at the moment it, you know, it is traumatic, but I think it’s not only how we get through that experience, but also how we reflect back on what has happened to us and how that helps us move forward in life. And I’m very much reminded of, one of the people that I interviewed and viewed in the film, Eve Justesen, who talked about reading Victor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning. And if you haven’t read it, it’s a fabulous book. He was a Holocaust survivor who talked looking at the people that he was in camp with and not knowing who is going to survive based on their physical strength. It was much more about their emotional strength. And I think when I talked to Eve about the book, the thing that really resonated with her and still does with me is that there are so many times in our lives where we cannot control the things that are happening around us. But what we can control is our attitude about how we deal with those things and also how we reflect back on what we think about those things are. I’ve learned that looking back is just as important sometimes as being in the moment in terms of how we move forward through life. And so I would say that resilience and positivity definitely go hand in hand.

20:12 Peter Bowes
I think it’s very interesting that the anecdotal evidence that essentially is the bedrock of the documentary and your book, anecdotal being the stories that the older people told you, but how that gels with a lot of the scientific evidence that we’ve heard about in recent years as well. And you mentioned loneliness and the negative effects of loneliness. The US Surgeon General has talked about this. There is a huge push now, isn’t there, to try to get people to understand the negative health impact of just being alone as you grow older. And I get a sense that there is a momentum here now in terms of understanding. Like maybe there was in terms of the message that you really shouldn’t be smoking 20 or 30 years ago that we’re beginning to understand and realize that this issue of loneliness really is a matter of life and death.

20:03 Sky Bergman
Absolutely. And I would say that the issue of loneliness not only affects older adults, but also affects young people as well. And I think that bringing those two generations together in particular who are really feeling this social isolation is such a gift. And I remember working on a project during the pandemic where we were working with students and older adults and they were using the questions that I used in the film to get to know each other. And then at the end, they do this big wrap party where they get talk about what they learned. And one of the students said during the presentation, this was the first new friend that he had made during the pandemic. And I thought how wonderful that was that somebody from a completely different generation. And he didn’t feel us alone because he had this friend that he could talk to and that they could relate to one another and really I think that for the student, hearing the older adult talk about difficult times and how that person got through them really helped the student to get through that moment and the pandemic. So you know, it’s not, we tend to think of older adults as being the ones that are socially isolated, but I think we need to live. There are many other generations that are also isolated. And again, it’s like breaking down those divisions and bringing people together. for a common goal, think it’s so helpful in so many ways. And the isolation is definitely one of the key ways that it’s very helpful.

22:31 Peter Bowes
Now, well as diving into these issues, the book is also something of a masterclass in terms of filmmaking. And of course, this draws on your long career as an educator in this area. But it really fascinated me. I’m in the same business, essentially, of telling the stories through this podcast in video, YouTube, and in audio as well. And telling the stories of people who are growing older, looking at the science, looking at the validated science and trying to make sense of it, but you go behind the scenes of the documentary, which I found really interesting. Everything from choosing the right location to do your interviews to listening to the ambient sound of a room, which I was always trained as a radio broadcaster to do before an interview. Really, the technicalities of achieving a good interview. Why was it important for you to do that, at least in part, during this book

23:22 Sky Bergman
Well, I think that for me, this was really the first time that I’d done anything like this. And I think it was such a monumental project. And I, you know, want to make that experience easier for other people. I want to encourage other people to collect stories, to really want to interview somebody. So whatever I could maybe put down on paper to help people make it easier for them. think that because I was such a novice at doing this that it was all that was really right at the surface of like, okay, these are the things that I know I did wrong here. So I can help you not make those same mistakes and make it a little bit easier. And, I, have a motto at the university that I teach at it’s learn by doing, and I feel like I have lived that motto. I’ve made a lot of mistakes along the way. So I’m very happy to share what I know works and also share the things that I know didn’t work so that, you know, hopefully people don’t make those same mistakes like listening for room tone and listening for the sound of a room and really picking a quiet environment. And, you know, the other thing that I learned, and this was really hard being somebody that was, that is visual is that actually when you’re doing a film, the most important part is the sound. It’s not the visuals because so many times if you’re watching something, if you can hear the person, even if the image quality is not the greatest, you’ll stick with it if the story is good. But reverse, if you are watching something and you can’t understand it, you can’t hear it, you’ll turn it off no matter how great the visuals are. So that was something that I learned very early on. And I’m happy to share those little tips and tricks to hopefully make it easier for other

25:03 Peter Bowes
What about the process of getting the best out of your interviewee? There is a skill there, and there’s a special skill in terms of talking to an older person, perhaps a very older person, who has a lot to say. But how do you get the best out them

25:18 Sky Bergman
That is a really good question. And I think that for me personally, what I did, and this might work for you, it might not, I would go and meet the person without any camera gear. I would just go and meet them because I wanted them, I wanted to gain their trust. I think that that for me was the most important thing, that people knew that I was doing this film out of a love of my grandmother and just to have a conversation with them so that when I did bring my cameras, cause it’s intimidating to be the person that’s being interviewed with cameras, you know, on you and a mic and everything. And, by that point, because I had had a conversation with them previously, when I came with my camera gears, I just have camera gear and audio gear. just said, this is another conversation and it just gave us a more relaxed – it was just more authentic I think because it just it wasn’t the first time that I was talking to them and I I do think that building that relationship is super important I mean I’m working on another film right now called the prime time band which I love it’s all about this group down in Santa Barbara that’s made up of people that are primarily sixties all the way to their nineties seventy five people strong who used to play instruments when they were younger and then put them away when they did their day jobs and now are coming back to them later in life. And they rehearse every Tuesday and then they perform throughout the county. And I am a band geek. I used to play flute, clarinet and bassoon when I was in high school. And so when I heard about this and I wanted to film them, the first thing I did, I didn’t bring my camera gear. I brought my flute and I sat and I played with them. And then I was one of them. And because of that, I think the interviews that I got were much you know, much better. They were more auth entic because I think when you come from that place, it’s a very different place. When you come from what making that connection with somebody, you’re going to get a much better interview if you have a connection with

27:18 Peter Bowes
That just struck a chord. So I was clarinet, cello and piano during my school days and I think in the intervening 40 or 50 years I’ve probably forgotten everything I learned during those teenage years. But it’s always, and I’m probably very typical here, it’s always been something that I have said, oh yes I would love to return to it. Love to buy, love to have a piano in the house again. Can’t remember the last time I did, but I think that’s going to resonate with a lot of people. I can’t wait to see that.

27:45 Sky Bergman
I hope so. Well, the second part of that film is that a number of the people that are in the primetime band are also in part of this group called The Music Van, which is quite literally a van full of instruments that they take into third grade classrooms and introduce students to instruments, many of whom have never had the opportunity to pick up an instrument and to see the joy on the kids faces when they just light up when they pick up a French horn or a tuba or a trombone and start playing, because they get an opportunity to actually play all those instruments. I love everything that I do from here on forward will be about connecting generations. And I love this idea of these older adults who are coming back to music later in life and then paying it forward by going into elementary schools and introducing instruments and music to eight year olds, many of whom would never have that opportunity. And who knows what it might change in their life and how it might set them on a different path because they have that experience.

28:41 Peter Bowes
Just one more question about the mechanics, if you like, of making a film. And that is funding it. This is an expensive business. Cameras, microphones, and the whole long, long editing process, it all costs money. And you had a huge challenge, didn’t you, at the beginning of this process. How did you get over it?

29:02 Sky Bergman
Yeah, I, you know, I often get asked how do, how do you fund a film? Because it’s an independent filmmaker. I don’t have somebody funding the film. I mean, I’m very happy that it’s now Lives Well is now on PBS and Amazon and iTunes, but they weren’t funding it when I was making it. And I have a little, quote above my desk. It says your decision should be based on your curiosity over fear. And if I had let my fear get in the way, I would never have made a film. I just was so curious on how to follow my passion. And so I had to think a bit outside the box of how I was going to fund a film because as an artist and as a creative, it was very important to me that everyone that worked on the film got paid because I think that many times as creatives, people try and take advantage and say, well, this will be, you know, really good for your resume or this will be really good exposure. But that doesn’t pay the bills but for me, it was really important for me to pay everyone. And I had applied for a few grants and not really gotten much of anything. And it was at that point, a film about older adults, nobody was really funding something like that. So I realized that I had some extra rooms in my house and I started renting out rooms in my house through Airbnb. And that was how I funded the film was by renting out rooms in my house through Airbnb. it had kind of a twofold effect. One was I got the money to help make the film. But I also, all these people that stayed at my house, I would tell them, well, you’re helping me fund this film and please, you know, stay connected. And when I went into film festivals, then all these people were around the country, would go to the festivals that I got into. And I had a built in like fan club already of people that wanted to see me succeed because they felt like they were invested in the project. That was such a great way to get the film out there in the world was to do something a little different. And I loved it. I loved having people in my house. I loved meeting new people. So it was a totally unique way to, to fund a film.

31:05 Peter Bowes

Well, it’s a bit of a cliché, but never give up on your dreams that there’s always a way. And essentially, you’ve found the way. You say the process that you have gone through has reshaped your understanding of life. And I guess that’s the process of meeting the, as you call them, the stars of your film and now writing about it as well. In what way has it reshaped your understanding of life?

31:29 Sky Bergman
Well you know, I think that I am forever grateful to all the people that I interviewed. I mean, it just, can’t imagine my life before and after. Now I think that one of the biggest things for me in terms of reshaping my life is that I really live more fully in the moment and I appreciate the moment a lot more. I think when I started working on the film, I was so busy. I was department chair. I was working really hard and I wasn’t taking. the time to really appreciate just being in the moment and being more present. And I do think that because of the film, I am much more present, I’m much more grateful for each and every moment. I don’t take any moment for granted. And it’s just life is a lot better, I think, when you have kind of this more positive attitude and really appreciate each and every day. There’s something, my attitude about life just got better. And it’s certainly about aging. I mean, it’s now something that I look forward to. I cherish every wrinkle that I get and all the gray hairs. really, you know, I think before the media had me thinking that I had to worry about those things and now I embrace it and I look forward to each and every moment. I am much more accepting of myself the way that I am than I was before I started working on this

32:42 Peter Bowes
So you’re in the pro -aging camp as opposed to the anti -aging camp, that phrase we often hear in this sphere of longevity?

32:51 Sky Bergman
Absolutely, yes, indeed.

32:53 Peter Bowes
Skye, it’s a great read. The book is lovely. The film, I think it’s always going to be a must watch. I think as we move through generations, it’s going to be something hopefully that people will return to. I thoroughly enjoyed it and recommend it whenever I get the opportunity. Really good to talk to you again. All the best with your new projects and thank you very much.

33:13 Sky Bergman
Thank you.