Overcoming a Binge Eating Disorder

Phil Williams: [00:00:00] She leaned forward and she said, I’m sorry to have to tell you this, Phil, but you have a binge eating disorder. And I went, what? A what? Don’t be ridiculous. Right. And she said. And her face didn’t crack. Right. She went, no, you do. I felt it was out of my control. I felt also it was something I’d done. And then what happened was the shame was still existing around that point. Peter. So on my own, with my thoughts, I was. ‘You stupid, greedy, fat fucker. Look what you’ve done. Now you’re about to kill yourself because you’ve just been greedy and out of control.’ And the language was really loathsome.

Peter Bowes: [00:00:43] Hello and welcome to the Live Long podcast. I’m Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the art and science of living long and well. But it’s not always an easy road, is it? This thing called longevity? For much of my life, I’ve been known as someone who couldn’t just have one – one chocolate or whatever the treat happened to be. I had to finish the entire box. I couldn’t settle for one scoop of ice cream. The whole carton had to go, and if I was at a restaurant and agreed to share a dessert, my idea of sharing wasn’t exactly fair to my companion. So you get the picture. I have a sweet tooth, and over the years I’ve managed to curb those binge tendencies, at least for the most part. But whatever issues I’ve had with food, they pale in comparison to those of my friend Phil. Phil Williams is a broadcaster and journalist based in Manchester, in the northwest of England. He is the host of the excellent Books on the Beach podcast and the author of a recent Substack article titled I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but you have a Binge Eating Disorder. It is a gut wrenching account of the life threatening consequences of compulsive eating and an addiction to sugar, a story that Phil tells with typically disarming humor and an extraordinary level of honesty. And not only has he written about it, but Phil joins us now to continue that conversation. Phil, welcome to the Live Long podcast.

Phil Williams: [00:02:19] Well, thank you very much for inviting me. I’m not sure I would be comfortable doing this if it wasn’t you. So it’s an honor to be here with you.

Peter Bowes: [00:02:26] Well, that’s that’s kind of you to say, Phil, and it is quite a conversation that you’ve started for someone, as you put it in that article, who is not really one for oversharing.

Phil Williams: [00:02:38] No. So what my concern was so, well, first of all, let me rewind a couple of bits. I’ve known you 30 years. I didn’t know that you had a sweet tooth. I’ve turned up, loaded up with snacks, and you haven’t touched any of them. And I just would never have guessed. I would never have known that you had the same penchant as I have until you just did that intro.

Peter Bowes: [00:02:59] Well, it’s interesting you say that because clearly, as you say, we’ve known each other for a long time, and I didn’t know a lot about you that I’ve discovered in this article. We had we had lunch, we had lunch just two years ago. A nice pub lunch in the north of England. And I mean, we didn’t particularly talk about food, but there was no sign to me that you had this kind of issue, which I assume was actually going on at that time. Much of what you write about is last year, but it was it was building up.

Phil Williams: [00:03:27] The diagnosis came in June ’25. So what happened was I wasn’t a happy man. In June ’25, I’d lost a regular radio show that I enjoyed doing. I was struggling with my kids who are now seven and ten and just struggling with things that just kids do. They were just being kids. They weren’t doing anything outlandish, but it was trying my patience too much, and I was using sugar as an emotional crutch for bad news or difficult moments or moments where I didn’t quite know how to process what was going on. And so I’d gone to see a psychotherapist. I was really lucky actually, Peter, because I’ve got an amazing physio because I’m six foot four as well, so my back often plays up. So my physio recommended the psyche and the psyche is down the road. I mean, you do need some luck in these situations to find the right people. And I’d gone to see the psyche because I was fed up. That was my mission. If you’d have phoned me, then why are you bothering with a psychotherapist? Phil? I said, I’m just fed up. I’ve just had enough. So that’s why I went. And then 3 or 4 sessions in, she said the sentence that you quoted from the top of the Substack, she looked me right in the eye. And I have to tell you a little bit about Kirsty, because I think it’s really important with a psychotherapist, you have to bond with them because you have to be willing to spill your guts, and if you don’t do that, you won’t benefit from the psychotherapy. So it’s no good having someone that you don’t think you can share with. So Kirsty and I have an amazing and from session one, always had an amazing rapport. She’s about five years younger than me. She’s really funny. She appreciates my sense of humor. So we can sit there and it doesn’t feel like therapy. It’s not like, you know, when you see it in the movies and they’re lying on the couch and someone’s got a clipboard, and it’s not that. Um, but she leaned forward and she said, I’m sorry to have to tell you this, Phil, but you have a binge eating disorder. And I went, what? A what? Don’t be ridiculous. Right. And she said. And her face didn’t crack. Right. She went, no, you do. And I was like, really? And I came home and I told Catherine, my wife and Catherine went, yeah. And I was like, oh, right. So it’s obvious to you. Is it? And she went, yeah. I said, well, why haven’t you said anything? She said, because it’s not my place to say anything really. So I said, and it’s okay. Anyway, then one of my homework from Kirsty was because I, I found this. I’m like, what the fuck? I was really thrown by this. So one of the homework things she sent me was, you need to tell five friends that you’ve got a binge eating disorder. And the reason she sets you that is because there’s a huge amount of shame, as you probably know, with this disorder and the way that you conquer shame. I’m learning now is by not allowing it to survive in secrecy and darkness. So it only shame survives alongside embarrassment. And if you remove the embarrassment, you’re no longer ashamed of the condition of the disorder. So I remember phoning my friend Amanda first just because I was due to call her anyway. And she’s someone I’ve known since 1992 from university. And I told her and she said, yeah, I’m not surprised. I think I’ve got that too. Right. And then I called my mate Rich and he said, yeah. And I remember him saying that. Yeah. And I know it. So it’s not news to you that don’t be silly. No. The way you pack desserts away and blah de blah, blah, blah. And then you start to realize how you’ve been viewed. And part of the problem with the eating disorder for me is that it became a key part of my identity. So almost not quite competitive eating. It wasn’t like competitions, but if we were out, you know, I put this in the piece. I remember being out on a long table having a Sunday lunch in Manchester, and the waiter came over and said, any desserts? And I said, oh yeah, what flavor ice creams have you got? That’s all I asked. And my mate George said, uh, by the way, pal, three scoops minimum or he’ll turn the table over. And it was kind of a joke. It was a joke amongst my friends, you know? You mentioned the sharing thing in your intro in that same place I ordered Sunday lunch, and we didn’t realize as a table that these plates were sharing plates they were supposed to do too. So this roast beef Yorkshire pudding came out and I smashed it, and then my wife’s going, where’s mine? I said, they’ve bought everyone else’s. So I said, sorry, where’s my wife’s? And he said, you’ve eaten it. And I wasn’t aware that that was a sharing platter.

Peter Bowes: [00:07:36] I’m thinking if we didn’t live in different countries and we’d clearly seen each other a lot more in person over the last few years, maybe my reaction would have been a little different. Having just heard what you’ve said that your friends have said and their response what I’m what I’m curious about just backtracking a little bit is when this was first explained to you that you had this problem and that it was potentially very, very serious in terms of your health, which was explained to you. What did you think in that moment?

Phil Williams: [00:08:07] Well, yeah, so I I’m sorry I admitted that when Kirsty said, I’m sorry to tell you this, but you’ve got a binge eating disorder and I disbelieved. She said, it’s important that you acknowledge it because any type of eating disorder, whether it’s binge bulimia, anorexia, any of those family of eating disorders has a mortality rate of 50%. And I sat there and I didn’t have to do too much maths because 50 is quite easy to work out. And I just thought, blimey, if that was a horse, you’d be willing to back that one. Or that’s like having a tenner on the Cup final winner knowing you’ve got a 1 in 2 chance of winning, right? And I thought, right, so I’ve got a 1 in 2 chance of joshing it. That’s, oh that’s not great. And then actually that really deeply upset me. And it upset me because I felt it was out of my control. I felt also it was something I’d done. And then what happened was the shame was still existing around that point. Peter. So on my own, with my thoughts, I was, you stupid, greedy, fat fucker. Look what you’ve done. Now you’re about to kill yourself because you’ve just been greedy and out of control. And the language was really loathsome, right? And my wife said to me during a conversation about all this, she said, what worries me is that you speak about yourself in a way that if anyone spoke about your children, you’d kill them. And yet you’re you think it’s acceptable to speak about yourself in that way. And so there was real self-loathing after that diagnosis. And then I really want to tell you this because this is quite important as well with eating disorders. At the end of that session, Kirsty said to me, now listen, we’ve obviously just uncovered it. So if you go away and you have a binge between now and the next session, don’t worry. All I ask is that will you write in your phone what you think triggered the binge and what you ate? And I sat there and I didn’t know I’d done this, by the way. But I sat there and my mouth went like this. And she said, what are you smirking at? And I said, what? And she said, you’re smirking. And I said, am I. And I didn’t know I was doing it. So she really made me stop and think. And I thought, well, why was I smirking? And then I formed the conclusion that I was smirking because I thought I said to her, well, I’m not going to binge now till that the next session. And she said, why? I said, because you’ve told me I can. So because you’ve given me permission, I won’t do it. All I heard was the sound of a gantlet being thrown down and I went right. And when I told her that, she said, oh, competitiveness is a key trait of people with eating disorders.

Peter Bowes: [00:10:32] I was just wondering, in that moment, or the moments that followed when the consequences were laid out to you, whether you thought about your family or the. Whether you thought about people around you. If the worst came to the worst. In other words, what were the pivotal thoughts that you had that eventually spurred you into changing your life?

Phil Williams: [00:10:55] Uh, well, there was lots of there was lots of self loathing. There was lots of nasty language aimed at me, to me, about me. You know, you silly fat bastard. You greedy bastard. Look what you’ve gone and done. Now you know you’ve jeopardized your life. Your kids are only seven and ten. You’ve done it. And I remember saying that to Kirsty in a subsequent session. I remember saying, I feel responsible for this because I’ve shoved the food down. It’s me that’s that’s binged. And she said, what you’ve got to understand is that the binging is a symptom of something else. So you can’t blame yourself for that. That is a symptom of anxiety. With me, it’s high anxiety and low grade depression. And so the binge eating is the comfort. Right. But it’s also not quite as simple as that, Peter, because it’s also been celebratory. So get good news. Let’s go for a meal. Let’s, you know, get good news, get Domino’s in, blah de blah, blah, blah. And I mean, we were the warning signs were there, you know, I put in this piece. We did. Um, my youngest would have been four, just gone to reception right at school and we did his parents night and his teacher was lovely. She said, oh, we’re really pleased. He’s settling in really well. And I said, oh that’s good, because we were worried, you know, he was part time last year at nursery and he thought full time might kill him, as in tire him, you know. And his teacher said, no, no he’s great. And my lad said, yeah, because I used to finish at 11 on Wednesdays miss. And then dad would pick me up and we’d go and have daddy fun days out.

Phil Williams: [00:12:27] And she said, oh, that’s great. What kind of things would you do on a daddy fun day? And he said, oh, we used to go Krispy Kreme and smash a box of donuts. And I’m like, that made me freak because it actually was correct. It was that we did do that, but he would have half a donut and say, I’m full. This is the other thing I’ve learned from my kids. We don’t restrict sugar at all for the kids, right? They have pudding every night, right? But you give them four squares of dairy milk and they go on full. And if you occasionally give them more than four, they go, dad, can you put those back? I’m full. I was never full with that stuff. Right. I don’t know about you, but I was never you know, I remember covering a court case once with people you’ll know right in the north of England Kevin Bocquet, John Thorne, Richard Wells. And it was at Leeds Crown Court and the judge used to enjoy his lunch. Right. So we had 90 minutes for lunch. So we’d come out of court. I would file for radio one, they’d file for radio four and then we’d convene in the pub, have a couple of pints and a full pub lunch. And they used to do this dessert in this pub, which was two slices of chocolate cheesecake on a sharer plate. And the idea was, I think it was for couples or friends or whatever. And me and the cameraman would have two each and see who could finish first. And that was like a fun thing to do in the pub.

Peter Bowes: [00:13:40] I know exactly what you’re talking about because I mean my issues. I haven’t been to the level of yours. I think that’s obvious. And I think it’s very easy for people sometimes, as you’ve experienced, to say, oh, I think that’s me as well. But then you’ve got to really dig deep and see whether you have a problem that goes as far as you’ve got a 5050 chance of surviving it. And for me, I could see that. I can see the tendencies there and the tendencies were that I just couldn’t have one. So therefore, I understand what you’re saying. I couldn’t just have one. It had to be two bowls, three bowls, four bowls of ice cream until the fridge is empty and the same applied to other sweet foods. I think I have managed through purely self determination to get over that. Sometimes it happens. It still happens, but not to the extremes that you’ve described.

Phil Williams: [00:14:32] But can I tell you what my psyche said about that, Peter?

Peter Bowes: [00:14:34] Go on.

Phil Williams: [00:14:35] She, when I went in and I had had a binge I’d been to. I tell you what I’d done, which was really silly thing. In my view. This was a silly thing to do is I was so worried. I should have explained at the beginning that this just didn’t come out of the blue. The eating. I’d had a year of health issues last year where I had high blood pressure, got put on medication, and then when I went in for that appointment, the doctor listened to my breathing and didn’t like something he’d heard on my chest. So he then put me in this system of CT scans, 3 or 4 different heart tests, right? So that was the backdrop to it. So I tried to go really super clean. And I remember I’d done three days super clean, no carbohydrates, plates full of vegetables and protein. And I was climbing the walls. I was loathing it and I was starving. So I went to McDonald’s with the kids and I did a double cheeseburger meal. So that’s large fries, large coke. And then I did a box of 20 nuggets, of which the kids had three, and I had the rest, right? And then I ordered a single hamburger. And then I sat there and went right. And there’s a I don’t know about you. When I’ve binged, there’s a 30 minute euphoria. I felt like Ewan McGregor in Trainspotting when he just smacked up. There’s the 30 minute binge effect where you go, oh, right. And all the noise has just gone, the noise goes and the worry just dissipates. And for those 30 minutes, you feel like ten men, right? And then all of a sudden, if it’s McDonald’s stuff, it’ll be the stomach will go. If it’s sugar, it starts to be a headache and you start to feel awful. So it’s a very short lived. And then if you perpetuate this, what I found is that then I’d need more McDonald’s or more chocolate, more Creme Eggs, more mini eggs, because the effect is diminished. It’s a law of diminishing returns. And so I was in with Kirsty and I said I’d been to Maccas and I’d smashed all this food and she said, let me ask you a question. She said, how many chicken nuggets do you reckon you actually ate? And I said, 17. And she said, did the 17th one taste as good as the first one. And I went, no. Didn’t even have to think about it. No it didn’t. No. Did the 10th one taste as good as the first one? I said no. She said, did the sixth one taste as good as the first one? I said, no, not really. Did the fourth one. I said, yeah, the fourth one did. She said, okay, so next time just have four. And I’m like, God, that’s so simple. But I wouldn’t have thought in that way.

Peter Bowes: [00:16:59] And I think you’ve just defined the classic addiction scenario then. Well, addiction.

Phil Williams: [00:17:05] But you say it’s.

Peter Bowes: [00:17:05] Addiction to me is a compulsion that has really no logic to it. It is just something that you do and you can’t explain.

Phil Williams: [00:17:12] Well, let me I’ll blow logic to you even more, right? I remember going to the supermarket to shop when I was in the middle of all this, and I hadn’t quite decided to give up the sugar. Right. And so I’m doing the big shop going up and down the aisles with the trolley. Right. Wife and kids are away for a week, so it’s just me feeding me. Right. I get to the booze section and I’d been doing at the time, I think it was summer. Must have been June, July, and I’ve been doing a lot of these cocktails in a can. Did you get those in L.A.? Yeah. So they’re like, you know. Yeah. And and they’re great and they’re really tasty. They’re high alcohol, but they’re full of sugar, right? There’s tons of sugar in them, right? So I’ve been caning these, and I get to the aisle where those cans are and I go, nah, don’t have those because they’re full of sugar. And then I get to the chocolate aisle and I can’t have the same discipline. The chocolate goes in the trolley. So, you know, if I was a truly addictive personality, I would just swap addictions. But I’ve never smoked. I’m not addicted to booze. I could turn the booze away in the supermarket, but I couldn’t walk past the dairy milk. So what I’ve cut out now, I think with these things, if you want to get on top of them, you have to identify your poison. So for me, it’s all chocolate cake, biscuits, sweets, ice cream, and Coca-Cola. That’s gone. I was mainlining Coke mainlining. I do like a liter with a Domino’s that’s supposed to be a family share bottle. It was all going in my cup.

Peter Bowes: [00:18:28] Over how many years did you live like this?

Phil Williams: [00:18:32] Well, I’ll tell you a story because I then, um. So those five people I didn’t. You know, it’s interesting. I didn’t get to. And this is no offense to Amanda and Rich because I love them dearly, but I didn’t get to my best mate who was my best man at our wedding until last. He was the last of the five because I couldn’t. I just was so ashamed I couldn’t dial his number and say the words I have been told. I’ve got an eating disorder. And when I finally did it, my voice cracked as I told him. And then he said to me, the thing is, he said, do you remember when we were at college and we used to run the SU shop? Now, mate, we were 19 when we did this right, and I was 51 last year when I was told about the disorder. And I said, oh yeah, didn’t we used to shut the shop for a bit and just kind of eat a few chocolate bars? And he said, yeah, we would shut the shop and put the closed sign up and then we’d binge about, well, I would probably do 4 or 5 chocolate bars in one sitting and then we’d reopen the shop. So that was 19. So I was doing it at 19, but I just didn’t realize it was a problem because over the years, what I had done, I mean, I went a whole year when I was living in London would have been about 2008. I gave up just chocolate for a year, but all I did was hit the sweets. So I just swapped one for the other. And then around my 50th, well, just before my 50th, I gave up everything. Sweets that I’ve just laid out to you. I gave up for 12 months and then I was turning 50 and this was where my brain was. We’d planned to go on holiday to Majorca, just as a family. Just just me and my wife and the two boys. And I thought, there is no way I’m having a 50th birthday and not having a cake, right? So I thought naively, I’ll just I’ll go back on the sugar for the holiday. And then, um, once I’m back a holiday, I’ll kick it again because I’ve kicked it once. Right. But I should mention, if you’re eating the level of sugar that I ate when I say kicked it, I’d done 14 days solid paracetamol because the headaches were blinding. So the grip it gets on your body and the withdrawal. If you decide to kick it into touch, the withdrawal is obscene. Really obscene.

Peter Bowes: [00:20:36] Just going on a little sidetrack here. You said a few moments ago, Phil, about your high blood pressure. Just tell me how high it was.

Phil Williams: [00:20:44] Oh, I mean.

Peter Bowes: [00:20:46] Yeah, I was shocked. I was – I didn’t think such a high level of blood pressure was even possible.

Phil Williams: [00:20:52] Oh, okay. Well. I’m laughing because,  so I don’t really like doctors, right. I don’t get on with them and I mistrust medical places. Right? That’s just a thing. So I get what’s called, they call it white coat syndrome, which is where you go into these places. I mean, you could do my blood pressure at your house, right? And it’d be sound. And then I’d go next door to the medical center and it would be right. And so every time and this is every time. I mean, I remember when I was in London, I used to do these, Bupa do these full body MOTs where you can get on a bike and with a nose pick and they’ll test your aerobic fitness. And they nearly didn’t let me on the bike because my blood pressure was so high. But when I got on the bike, I couldn’t get I couldn’t pedal fast enough to exceed their two thirds of your maximum limit because I was way fitter than the blood pressure was showing. So, anyway, I went to this, GP who was doing the heart stuff and he did it and well, he’d left the machine facing me so I could see. And then as soon as he saw me look, he tilted it because he didn’t want to see it, but it was the top figure was 210 and the bottom one was 135. And if you’re thinking, well, how high is that, Phil, just to let you know, in the UK, 120 to 140 is where you should be on the top reading and on the bottom you should be 70 to 90.

Peter Bowes: [00:22:10] Yeah, exactly. So life threatening high level of blood pressure.

Phil Williams: [00:22:16] Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Peter Bowes: [00:22:17] And you, you’ve, you’d known this for some time, but.

Phil Williams: [00:22:20] Not about the blood pressure. No. Because what had happened, there’d been blood pressure triggers. Right. There’s obviously there have been triggers because I’ve got a machine at home. And so I do it at home. And every time I do it at home, it would drop. It wouldn’t drop to perfect, but it may be the top figure would be 157 and the bottom one will be 75. And I’m like, well, I’m all right with that, you know what I mean? But then they’ve put the medication. I mean, I’ll level with you. I haven’t taken my blood pressure for ages. The machines only by the bed. I’m tempted to offer to do it live on your podcast, but only if the reading is bad. I don’t know how I’d react.

Peter Bowes: [00:22:53] Do you want to do that?

Phil Williams: [00:22:56] Do you want me to? I’ll go and get if you want me to.

Peter Bowes: [00:22:58] In fact, if you can give me 30s, I’ll go and get mine and we can do it together.

Phil Williams: [00:23:02] Yeah, go on then. All right. Deal.

Peter Bowes: [00:23:06] Okay. I’m back.

Phil Williams: [00:23:07] Okay.

Peter Bowes: [00:23:08] There you go.

Phil Williams: [00:23:09] Great. So there’s your machine. So I’m going to put my cuff on now. And we should just say really, Peter probably certainly here, if you’re going to do this, I mean, we’re obviously doing this for a little, hopefully a little bit of fun. But if you’re gonna do this seriously, you should do three readings at a time. Take the average right once in the morning. Once at night, seven days. Take the average so you can always get a rogue reading. But I’m.

Peter Bowes: [00:23:33] Usually not while you’re doing a an interview.

Phil Williams: [00:23:36] Not while you’re on a podcast, even though it’s not live. And we’ve known each other years, but not when you’ve been running around all day like a blue ass fly. So let’s see.

Peter Bowes: [00:23:45] Here we go.

Phil Williams: [00:23:54] Yeah. So I’m quite high at the moment, but not as high as I was. Mine’s come back at 172 over 113.

Peter Bowes: [00:24:03] And mine’s come back unusually high at 138 over 92. I think if we even just leave it ten minutes and do it again we’ll get actually.

Phil Williams: [00:24:12] Okay. Good idea. All right.

Peter Bowes: [00:24:13] I’ll do have a kind of relaxing conversation and we’ll just do it again in a few minutes time.

Peter Bowes: [00:24:21] You’re listening to the Live Long podcast, Our guest is Phil Williams, who has binge eating disorder. So Phil, tell me you’ve heard all of this bad news. You’ve acknowledged that you had a serious, potentially life threatening problem.

Phil Williams: [00:24:36] Yeah.

Peter Bowes: [00:24:36] What did you do first to try to come out of this?

Phil Williams: [00:24:40] Well, the first thing, so obviously I carried on with the therapy. And what we tried to do was to just get this off me. We tried to explore whether we could find a solution to the sugar addiction without packing it in. So another piece of homework Kirsty gave me was to go into a co-op. I only say that because it’s over the road from where she was working. So go into a kind of shop, grab a chocolate bar, eat it, and then walk away from that shop and not eat anything else that day, chocolaty. And I never fulfilled that, not because I breached it, but because I just knew that I wasn’t capable of doing that. So I just said to her, I can’t, I can’t do that because I know I won’t just buy the one or I will buy the one and then give it an hour and I’ll be back in another shop on school pickup or give it kids tea time, and I’ll be eating whatever they’re having for their pudding. There was always a root. And then a lot of people said to me, well, just don’t have it in the house. But I remember one night having a real blazing row with the eldest child. He’d really pissed me off, really got under my skin, and he went off up to bed and I went out to the garage and bought two. I don’t know if you have them in America, Peter, but they now all the popular chocolate bars that were around when you were last here, they do duo versions. So they’re basically two, right? So I bought two duos and I smashed them in the car on the way home. They never even got back to my house. They were gone on the drive back, which is about a mile. So I thought, I can’t do that. And I told Kirsty that, and then she said, I think we’re gonna have to be looking at abstinence then how do you feel about that? And I said, well, I just. It wasn’t much how I felt about that. It was more that because we haven’t got to the grim stuff yet, so I’ll just like I feel really bad because Peter is such a lovely man and I’m way more gross than Peter is. But, just to let you know what my kind of flaw was…  

Peter Bowes: [00:26:38] And just to explain, Phil, and you explain in your article about the kind of language that you use to describe what was happening to you, it’s not because that’s how you normally speak…it’s because it actually helps you to deal

Phil Williams: [00:26:50] It’s a bit of that…

Peter Bowes: [00:26:52] I know it’s a little bit of that, but it’s more than that in this situation.

Phil Williams: [00:26:56] Yeah. So there’s a comic book that, you’ll know really well, right? Because it originates from your part of the UK called Viz and they specialize in toilet humor. And I find if I use the euphemisms from that, that I can speak about it, but if you start expecting me to describe terms in a biological manner, I would clam up quite quickly. So I can’t really do that because, one of the things I – and Kirsty’s pulled me up on this in therapy – is I deflect with humour. So quite often I deflect with humour and so …

Peter Bowes: [00:27:29] I was just going to say for anyone watching or listening, that’s why there’s a little check on the explicit box for this particular podcast. We don’t usually have them, but.

Phil Williams: [00:27:37] Sorry about that.

Peter Bowes: [00:27:38] No, it’s not your fault at all. I want this to be to be genuine.

Phil Williams: [00:27:43] Okay, well, so here goes the the grim bit. I was pissing out of my arse up to six times a day, sometimes seven. And I use that phrase specifically because there was no solidity to what was passing. It was like molten liquid coming out of my backside. And that was all because of the sugar. And I was waking up in the night, so I’d go to bed fine. No problem. And then anywhere between 2 and 3 hours of sleep, I would wake up with the same caustic acid feeling all the way here. You could feel it. Just this part of my chest, it would get up to the back of your throat. It felt like someone had poured battery acid down my throat, and I would. I’d be fast asleep, so I wouldn’t want to do much. I didn’t want to get out of bed if I didn’t have to. So I would reach for Rennie on the bedside table, and I’d suck these Rennie in the hope that it would deal with it and it wouldn’t. So I’d have two more. I have two more. And I think you’re only supposed to have something like six of those in 24 hours. And I was doing six in about five minutes just to calm the acid here. You just get that sorted and then your stomach would go and you’d like, oh Christ, now I’ve got to get out of bed. And it would just be like molten lava falling out your arse. And, that’s where I hit rock bottom with it. So I’ve spoken since I wrote this article. I’ve spoken to a lot of people with a range of food disorders because I’ve had a lot of reaction to it. And some people haven’t hit rock bottom. And that’s the only thing I would say about if you’re trying to get on top of an eating disorder, you have to have reached your lowest tolerance point before you’re willing to make a change. Because if you’re not willing, if it’s not that bad, nothing will stop you from changing. Which is why I’ve been unsuccessful in the past. So now, I mean, I’ve … it’s really hot here as you and I record. It’s unseasonably warm in Manchester. It normally pissed down here, but it’s 29 degrees. And so I pick the kids up from school today. I’ve got them both a chocolate ice cream and because it’s so hot ones melted. So I’ve had to hold it. I’ve had chocolate ice cream drip onto my hand. And so what I’ve had to do is just get some, a wipe and wipe that I can’t, that would be the end of the world to do that, because it would make me want to go and get one for myself. But I’m not so bad that I can’t give it to my children responsibly. That’s fine. And I don’t think, God, I need one. Now that I’ve got over. I’ve got beyond that point now. But that’s why I decided that shit’s got to go because it was literally affecting my shit. Not in an American way where people say, oh, my shit’s bad. I’m in in a genuinely affecting mine. And, it was ruining my sleep and it was ruining my mood. And I spoke to someone this morning here, who confided in me that she’s tackling a bulimia disorder and that she’s had really nasty stomach complaints as a result. And I’ve got an additional stomach condition, which I’m not sure I mentioned in that piece called Diverticula. I don’t know if you know what that is. Okay. But I can explain it in layman’s terms. I mean, again, we should catch all this, but Peter and I, a journalist, we’re not medical professionals, but the diverticula small pouches, like, you know, the little condom pocket on jeans, they they form inside your bowel and that you can’t get rid of them. You can’t unform them, but you can stop new ones from forming. And when they form, sometimes your waste can get stuck in one of those pouches and not pass through you and on a on a proper flare up. And I spoke to Paul Merson about this, you know, the footballer, the former Arsenal and England player, because he’s got it and he has the same thing as me on a proper flare up. I’ve had to sleep by kneeling on the floor and resting my head on the mattress, because that was the only way. My stomach wasn’t in absolute spasm, and that took ages to pick up the diverticula because at first they did an ultrasound like they do on pregnant women, and they said, well, we can’t find anything wrong. And then they did…the one where you go all the way through the tunnel.

Peter Bowes: [00:31:32] MRI?.

Phil Williams: [00:31:33] Correct. Yeah. MRI and it was three initials and I was going to give you the wrong three. And they give you this purple liquid to drink as well. So it highlights what’s going on. And that was where they found these pouches. So I mean no clinician has said to me that’s because you’ve binged the sugar. But then they probably don’t know. I don’t really sit in a doctor’s waiting room or a doctor’s surgery and go, you never believe what I did. Last week I smashed 12 donuts out of a Krispy Kreme box. I don’t do that. So, yeah, but I’m convinced that’s led to that. So there are also other repercussions. You see, that’s the point I’m making. It’s not just the disorder, it’s what damage are you doing to your body. And do you remember years ago, I think you were still in the UK when Ben Elton broke big here and bent out to stand up comic and a comedy writer. And he was he wasn’t talking about chocolate. He was talking about lager and people being, you know, drinking too much. And he said you wouldn’t pour ten pints of lager and a curry into your brand new hi fi, would you? So why do you do it to your body? And I’m like, actually, that kind of works with sugar. It really is. The body is the most amazing thing that we’re given. We take it for granted. I mean, I used to, you know, when you’re out for dinner and you say to someone, do you want dessert? And they go, oh, no, thanks, my body’s a temple. Have you heard people say that? Right? Yeah. And my stock response to that was my body’s an amusement park. And then everyone would laugh and that would get a laugh, and I’d walk away going, oh, you’re funny, you’ve got a laugh. But really deep down, I’m thinking that you should not be treating this piece of technology like in that way. Really.

Peter Bowes: [00:32:59] I don’t know whether we’ve talked about this in the past, but I stopped drinking alcohol about 14, 15 months ago.

Phil Williams: [00:33:07] Okay. No, I didn’t know.

Peter Bowes: [00:33:07] It was April last year. Yeah. And that again, that wasn’t because of an addiction to alcohol. I wasn’t even drinking excessively. I was just gradually, over the years, drinking less and less and enjoying it still in the moment, but not enjoying it or not enjoying the after effects of sometimes just one glass of wine. Let’s say after about 30 minutes, certainly an hour. And then the next morning I’d still have the the fuzzy kind of of head, not through being drunk, but just drinking a quantity of alcohol. And I got to that point in my life thinking, why do it? What is the point? You know, alcohol is great for a moment, but there are no positives apart from that feel good factor that you get on drinking that sociable aspect of drinking alcohol. And so I just stopped drinking it and and haven’t. And as time goes on, I, I don’t have a desire to drink it. Just occasionally I might see people socially drinking a glass of red wine. I think that would be nice. But very quickly I understand how I will feel and essentially relive those moments after drinking alcohol that I absolutely hate. And that is enough now to stop me drinking alcohol even in a small quantity. And I think that’s what you’re saying about sugar, that you you see it as this vile thing that is going to do you harm.

Phil Williams: [00:34:25] It’s a causer of pain. Now, it’s a causer of pain. And I think if you can associate – pains quite powerful, and if you can associate pain with what you’re about to imbibe, then it can stop you from doing it. But I just want to make a kind of additional I think this point is really important. Maybe not so much for people of your podcast, you know, your regulars, maybe because they are obviously interested in exploring longevity in life. But Steven Bartlett got a lot of heat recently, didn’t he, for – the Diary of CEO Guy for saying, oh, I had three drinks and it ruined my podcast. Do you remember? You seen all those comments? Yeah. And I just want to make clear, you know, I don’t think you’re saying this about drink. And I’m not saying this about sugar. We’re not saying don’t have it because we’re not the fun police. I think what I’m saying is, if you’re relying on any substance to cushion your emotions and it’s causing you physical harm, then you need professional help to address that. But we’re not saying, oh, well, everyone should stop eating sugar. Nobody should drink. No one’s saying that at all. But what we’re talking about is effects that are direct to us, our experiences of things that we’ve put into our body that haven’t reacted well with our bodies.

Peter Bowes: [00:35:31] Yeah. And for us as individuals, well, certainly speaking for myself, the the enjoyment of having a clear headed morning far outweighs any enjoyment that a momentary enjoyment that I’m going to get from a glass of wine the night before.

Phil Williams: [00:35:46] Yeah. So and that’s the same with me now. I’m now sleeping well, not the moment in 29 degrees, but mostly I’m sleeping cleanly through the night. Right. And I’m not waking up. I couldn’t tell you the last time I had a Rennie or a chalk tablet. I couldn’t tell you the last time I diverticulitis flared up. I can normally spot it coming. Now if I’ve had, say, a pizza and then the following day I have more bread on top of the pizza. That’s a bad look for me for the diverticular. I’m really happy. I mean, I’m quite hard on myself really, as we’ve probably established in this podcast. But Kirsty says you need to give yourself credit for where you’ve come in 12 months, because there are some people who take two years just to understand they’ve got a disorder. They don’t change any behavior. They’re still trying to comprehend what does that mean? What does the binge eating disorder mean? Or the bulimia or whatever? I looked it up earlier for the woman that I spoke to who was swapping stories with me about her eating disorder. I think it’s something like 295 days now that I’ve not had any. I call it the filth, by the way. So I’ve had to give it an identity. This is something Kirsty was keen for me to do. Give the food group that was hurting me an identity, make it a thing because then it’s easier to personalize and dislike it. So it’s the group, the coke sweets, chocolate ice cream, biscuits, cake. They’re known as collectively the filth. So I, in fact I’ll, I’ll show you. I’ll get my app up. I’ve got a little counter that tells me how many days is because I think it’s quite good that I don’t know. There we go. 292 and if you can see that on the camera, it says filth free.

Peter Bowes: [00:37:21] Filth free. That’s a great name for a podcast, isn’t it?

Phil Williams: [00:37:28] Yeah. Sadly not yours. When you invite me on, apologize for that.

Peter Bowes: [00:37:33] Yeah. No, this has certainly been an experience, but I think full of valuable one. Just tell me. I mean, you’re clearly in a much better place now. And you say there’s been quite an extraordinary reaction to the the article that you wrote. What do you for for other people, maybe people watching or listening to this, what do you hope people can glean and gain from your story?

Phil Williams: [00:37:54] So that’s a really interesting question because I think there’s a I definitely don’t want to come across as pious or oh, well, look at him. He’s dealt with his addiction in 12 months. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think there was good. Well, I was concerned about that. I tell you what I’ll do is I’ll read to you, you probably getting from this that I feel really fortunate to have met Kirsty. She’s a phenomenal psychotherapist. And at 4:59 today, a minute before you and I were due to record, she said good luck at five. I think speaking about hard things and sharing is probably just about the most wonderful thing we can do as humans. It’s so important to let others know that they are not alone, and already you have stopped someone else continually continuing to blindly go through what you’ve had to. If there can be something good that comes out of suffering, then that can only be a wonderful way to make sense of your own journey. I hope it goes well. That’s when I get, a bit emotional because yeah, she’s she’s amazing and I wouldn’t have done that without her. So I think what she said, basically, to answer your question, if someone else, the reaction to the Substack has been,thank you for shining a light on this. It’s so brave. Blah di blah di blah. It doesn’t feel brave to me Peter, because of that line that I said earlier where shame only exists in secrecy. So the more that I can put this out, then the less shame there is attached to it. Which means, it doesn’t feel as brave a task as others say, but if I can stop someone else from developing nasty stomach issues, or also sometimes just thinking, oh, you know, sometimes there’s safety in numbers, isn’t there just someone going, oh Christ, I, I do that. I’ve had a lot of, a lot of blokes say to me, I do that with chocolate and maybe I shouldn’t. And even if it just plants the seed, you know, then that’s it’s done its job I think.

Peter Bowes: [00:39:39] Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I think you’ve done a great job in talking in the way that you do. I acknowledge some of those traits in myself that honestly, I haven’t talked about in public before because I’ve never really seen it as such a huge problem. And I don’t want to exaggerate my situation because I think I have got that under control now. It occasionally flares up if you want to use that expression where something happens and you go straight to the fridge. But in general terms.

Phil Williams: [00:40:09] Are you more conscious if that happens as you’re going to the fridge? Do you have the thought process of, don’t take too many of these.

Peter Bowes: [00:40:17] Yeah, exactly. And I think control is something that is a big part of this that you manage to, to get your life and your those bingy tendencies under control.

Phil Williams: [00:40:26] Kirsty said to me that a lot of people binge eat when they lack control in other areas of their lives. So a job was taken from me. Children who I adore were really testing my patience, and I just felt maybe out of control in so many areas. So the one area I could control was driving to the garage, buying the double decker duo, eating it. That was I was exerting control, albeit terrible control.

Peter Bowes: [00:40:49] Exactly. And the other reason I wanted, apart from being emotionally quite moved by what you had to say and wanting to talk to you on this podcast is that this is a podcast about human longevity, living, long living well, which sometimes can become a bit of a cliche. And, you know, there’s a pushback from some people that, oh, well, just live and let live your life. Don’t worry about your longevity. You’re going to die when you’re going to die and all this kind of stuff. And I, I strongly believe in, in doing certain things in my life that can at least extend my healthy years, but equally want to acknowledge that it’s really difficult for some people and that we all have we all have issues. Many of us have issues that can prevent us from living a long and healthy life, and we need to get those in perspective.

Phil Williams: [00:41:36] It’s, you know, when you’re I mean, I got my first job at 21. Were you younger or did you go through a university system?

Peter Bowes: [00:41:43] Yeah, I was about 21 as well. I went, I went to college, I changed careers dramatically at about the age of 20/21. I was destined to be working in science and biology and research, which kind of helps me do this podcast. But then I acknowledgeD what was always inside me. And that was an urge to, to do this kind of work, to do broadcasting, radio, television, as we’ve both done together over the decades.

Phil Williams: [00:42:07] So you try talking to a 21 year old and persuading them to sit a pension up and they get pension under 21, mate, I can’t afford a round in the pub, I don’t need a pension and all of a sudden they get pensionable age. It’s the same thing. I think what you’re discussing, I think there’s a there’s a problem with culture today as well. And I mentioned Bartlett. He’s a key exponent of this. This optimization culture that we’re living in. And I think it’s important. I’m sure people know from your tone that you are not suggesting optimizing. What you’re saying is, well, I’d quite like to live a bit longer, actually. I quite like this living thing. It’s all right. It’s for me. How do I do it a bit longer without aggravating it? And I can see that what I’ve done is I’ve kind of kicked the bees nest a little bit. I’ve kind of poked the hornet’s nest and gone, oh, right, live long. Go on then. Well, let’s test it by eating badly. And so now and I have a. I really feel this deeply, Peter. I have a real responsibility to my boys. I think if I leave this planet and it’s my fault, see, Kirsty will tell me off for that. She’d tell me off for saying it’s your fault, but that’s how I viewed the eating. Then I’d be fuming with myself, although I’d be there. But do you know what I mean? You know the point I’m making. Whereas, you know, I think I just. I owe it to them, really. They rely on me so much. I want to see them at least set up in their adult lives before I shuffle off to the great Pizza Hut in the sky.

Peter Bowes: [00:43:23] Well, full. You say that often, I ask people, as I close these interviews, what longevity means to you and how you see your decades ahead, and perhaps why you are striving to live as long a healthy life as possible. And I would say overwhelmingly people answer by saying, I want to be here for my children and my grandchildren. I want to help them. I want to be part of their lives. I want to share whatever wisdom I have with them. And that is the number one reason why people say that they want to live to a great, healthy age.

Phil Williams: [00:43:56] I’ve got another one, which is more selfish, way more selfish. But I’m just gonna be honest. I’ve been honest throughout the podcast, right? I haven’t had a decent holiday since we had kids, right? Because the minute you have kids, your holidays are just what my brother likes to call shit and chips holidays, which is where you go somewhere that’s resorty and you chuck them in the pool all day, wear them out, and then you get a load of chips in, and then you see if you can get them to sleep any time before 10:00. Thanks very much. And you know, because we met you on our honeymoon, for example, that, you know, my wife and I used to do amazing trips to North America and to Mexico and places like that. So the other reason I want to increase this longevity is that I’m really looking forward to having the time back when the kids have gone and it’s just Catherine and me. And that’s not I’m not wishing them out of the house by any stretch, but I’m just looking forward to that. Some people find when their kids get older that they’ve got nothing left to say to each other, because it was only about the kids. But I’ve got such a great relationship with Catherine, I can’t wait to go and have some more fun with her. So really, it’s about prolonging the fun. I had a lot of fun in my 20s and 30s, but it wasn’t with my wife, it was with bands and it was doing Radio One and doing Five Live entertainment stuff and just doing rock and roll showbiz reporting like you’ve done, and rubbing shoulders with film stars. And now I’d like to do is I’d like to be able to reach 65 and still be fit enough to go and do a touring holiday with her, where we have the best time in the world, just we don’t eat as many desserts. Well, I don’t.

Peter Bowes: [00:45:16] It’s about prolonging the fun. I like that. Another guest that I spoke to said it’s about just keeping the parade going. I think it’s the same kind of sentiment.

Phil Williams: [00:45:25] That’s nice.

Peter Bowes: [00:45:25] Phil. Thank you for your honesty. I appreciate it. I’ve still got my blood pressure..

Phil Williams: [00:45:31] Shall we go for it. Yeah.

Peter Bowes: [00:45:31] I think we should. We did it. I don’t know, it was 20 minutes ago, and mine was a little high and. But I’d been running around.

Phil Williams: [00:45:38] If my GPs watching this. I’m not coming in.

Peter Bowes: [00:45:44] Here we go.

Phil Williams: [00:45:45] Oh, you pressed it already? I’ve got to put the cuffs back on. Hang on. Okay.

Peter Bowes: [00:45:49] When we first knew each other 20 plus years ago, did we ever imagine we’d be doing this?

Phil Williams: [00:45:57] Doing his and his blood pressure readings on a podcast.

Peter Bowes: [00:46:01] Laughing too much while you’re taking your blood pressure. Oh, mine has just failed. I think I didn’t have my arm straight. I’m going to try it again.

Phil Williams: [00:46:06] Right. Okay. Don’t make me laugh now. Here we go. Mine’s gone up. So there we are.

Peter Bowes: [00:46:15] It’s higher than it was a few minutes ago.

Phil Williams: [00:46:17] Higher. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I’ve just had too much excitement with you. Peter 187/109. Which is a bit naughty, really.

Peter Bowes: [00:46:22] Yeah. So mine is 135/90 before it was 138/92. So it’s gone down over slightly.

Phil Williams: [00:46:28] But yours has dropped.

Peter Bowes: [00:46:29] But it’s still, it’s still high for me. But this is an unusual situation. And I think….

Phil Williams: [00:46:35] And also it shows you need to keep a watching brief on these things. That’s the that’s why I didn’t mind doing it with you. Right. Because actually, you know, that is high now. So I will carry that up for the rest of the week now just to make sure, because otherwise I’ll just need to up the medication.

Peter Bowes: [00:46:46] I mean I my doctor over, and I’ll not go into the long. We’ll be here for another hour if. I told you the entire history. But there was a time when we were looking at my blood pressure, and he said, look, just go home, test it three times a day, every day for the next month and come back and see me. And it gave a really good outline of the highs and the lows. And it was a really good snapshot, but it was a realistic one because it was done at home, done while I was relaxed. And I think that’s the that’s the time to do it.

Phil Williams: [00:47:14] Yeah, I mean, I also, I know I’ve referenced the heat, but I am at the moment sweating like xxxxx so, you know, it kind of that’s not going to help my reading.

Peter Bowes: [00:47:22] The only thing I’m going to cut out of this. The only thing I don’t care about the projectile diarrhea or anything like that, but the comment you just made, I don’t want to live with.

Phil Williams: [00:47:39] All right, let me stop laughing.

Peter Bowes: [00:47:40] Because I’ve just edited that out. No one even knows what we’re talking about. But Phil, it has been a great pleasure. As I say, I admire what you’re doing.

Phil Williams: [00:47:48] It’s been an honor to besmirch your podcast with my filth and, but I hope it helps someone. I hope someone listening who maybe is in the right boat or the same boat, I should say, can maybe address what they’ve – their demons, but it’s been a genuine honor. Peter, thank you very much for inviting me on.

Peter Bowes: [00:48:04] Really appreciate it. All the best Phil.