Hidden Drivers Of Longevity

Oscar Trelles: [00:00:00] One of the problems with modern life is that boredom gets a bad rap. We are constantly stimulated and when we are not, we are looking for the stimulation. People are having a conversation at a at a cafe, and the moment somebody stops talking, the immediate reflex is to go look at the phone for no reason at all.

Peter Bowes: [00:00:24] Hello again. Welcome to the Live Long podcast. I’m Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the art and science of living long and well. Now we often focus on extending life through science and technology. But what if living a healthier life was less about pursuing longevity, and more about creating the conditions that allow it to emerge naturally? Oscar Trelles is an entrepreneur turned coach whose work explores the connections between recovery, resilience and the way we age. He argues that modern life often pushes those systems out of balance, and that the structure of our daily lives may matter more than we realize. Oscar, welcome to the podcast.

Oscar Trelles: [00:01:11] Thank you for having me, Peter.

Peter Bowes: [00:01:13] When you talk about the structure of our daily lives, you literally mean minute by minute how we conduct our lives. Could, without us realizing it, have an impact on on how long and how well we live?

Oscar Trelles: [00:01:25] Definitely. I mean, most of the patterns that we follow on a daily basis were not installed consciously. They were programed through our experience since childhood. Right. And so we are not necessarily thinking about these things, but these are the operating conditions that lead to everything. Everything is connected. And one of the problems of modern life is that we are constantly trying to optimize one thing at a time, right? Some people are looking at their sleep. Other people are looking at their diet or optimizing their workouts. But in reality, the quality of your sleep affects your energy. Your energy affects your mood in the morning. Your mood affects your relationships, and there’s really no separation between your personal life and business life, right? So we bring the same operating system, the same nervous system at home, at work. So yes, so I am looking at how we live in a in a more systemic way, if you will.

Peter Bowes: [00:02:20] Just tell me a little bit about what prompted you to look into our lifestyles with such detail. And I think such fascination. I can tell that this is something that has intrigued you for a long time. I described you as an entrepreneur turned coach. How did you get to this point?

Oscar Trelles: [00:02:38] Well, I think like for many people, Covid had an impact in in our lives in mind. It was a really, really significant. Even before Covid, I had already realized that I wasn’t healthy enough, I wasn’t living in a healthy way. And I had started doing some, some things to become better. Like trying to eat better, be more active and introduce more movement in my life. But, being an entrepreneur, I was constantly a traveling and being rewarded for a lot of, external signs of success. when Covid came and all the business travel stopped and I didn’t have to commute to the office or anything like that. my identity went along with all those things. I just felt like I didn’t recognize the person, that I was seeing in the mirror anymore. And even though the company that I was running and building at the time still survive and actually thrive through, through Covid, I just, felt like that wasn’t me anymore. And so that prompted me to reorganize my priorities. I was in New York at the time, and I then moved to Europe. While I didn’t really have a plan of what to do next, I returned to something I always like to do, which is coaching or mentoring startup founders. So in that process is that I realized that resilience was something that a lot of entrepreneurs were lacking, especially with so much uncertainty during the last few years in terms of the economy and you know, what to do with resources. So that led me into that, arena.

Peter Bowes: [00:04:23] What kind of business were you running before?

Oscar Trelles: [00:04:25] I was building a market research company. So I come from advertising, which is where I spend most of my, my career and my adult life. So it was kind of an easy transition, right? So I went from a consuming a lot of a lot of research for advertising and which always ended up in being a website or a TV ad or something like that to actually doing or enabling other companies, other brands and agencies to get a little bit of an understanding of how people actually think and why they do what they do. So the reason the company thrived during Covid is that we were doing online surveys online, and we were asking people questions, and they were recording themselves on video. And usually a lot of agencies use, focus groups for that. With Covid, all the focus groups facilities closed. So they were coming to us now. but that was the business that I was building. Actually. We started in New York. We opened an office in London. I was in Singapore when Covid hit. and obviously that derailed all our plans to open an office there.

Peter Bowes: [00:05:33] And when you say that you’re, you’ve moved into coaching. We are talking about essentially business coaching here just to avoid any confusion in terms of health coaching, you’re not a health professional, but clearly, a lot of the issues that you’re looking at now and you’re writing a book about this, which we’ll get onto in a second, but clearly a lot of those issues relate to our health.

Oscar Trelles: [00:05:53] Yeah. Like I was saying earlier, there’s no separation between our personal life and our business life. by the same token, there’s no separation between our nutrition and the quality of our sleep. So maybe from the outside it looks like a, like a quick transformation on my side, but actually something that I had been exploring personally, for a long time. I think the, the moment where everything changed for me was when my, my eldest daughter, now she’s almost 20, she was 2 or 3 years old at the moment and I was coming back from work. And I, you know, she was always trying to play with me. And one night I just couldn’t, I almost collapsed and just trying to play with her. And that was eye opening. Right. So I was overweight. I was drinking too much. I used to smoke still back then. So that night prompted me to make some quick changes. And that’s what I was talking about earlier, that I had made some changes even before Covid, but, those weren’t enough for in my concept. Like many people, I tried all these diets and they failed at different, you know, levels because that’s not how really life works. You cannot just change your diet for a few months and then, and then go back to how you used to live and pretend that that’s going to help. Right. I know, I know better now, but it took me a while to realize how our organism actually works. And so in a sense, I’m just trying to share that, that pathway, that, that roadmap that I discovered by hacking it with other people. and again, I’m not, I will never say this is the way whenever somebody says my program or my thinking or my idea is the one I run away. but I’m trying to offer a different, what worked for me, how I see things so that maybe other people can benefit from it.

Peter Bowes: [00:07:50] So let’s dive into that roadmap that you say you have hacked and look at some of the the data that you’ve been exploring and some of the lifestyle techniques. I’m curious, where did you start?

Oscar Trelles: [00:08:02] When I became a coach and to your point, a business coach, right. Because I decided there was a space for, for people or for, for a business coach that has actual experience building startups  from nothing, right? The theme of resilience became very often something that we talked about with my clients. I had been practicing the Wim Hof Method, for example, for a while. I wasn’t teaching them the method, but I was sharing with them how a cold exposure and conscious breathing had helped me deal with my own nervous system and become more and more resilient. And then later, I decided to take the next step in my practice and become a Wim Hof method instructor. And in the process of teaching the method, I realized that this. All other things that I had been doing for my own health for a long time could also be put into a methodology so that this includes intermittent fasting as a way to signal a order to, to our system. A lot of functional movement, like I’m a big, I’m big into hiking, for example, and it’s probably one of the easiest things that people can do. And because it’s so easy, it tends to be overlooked or not really valued. Right?

Peter Bowes: [00:09:21] There is a huge consensus, isn’t there? That movement probably comes fairly close to the top of the pyramid in terms of what we can do to help ourselves on a, on a daily basis. And, and certainly hiking and walking a lot is something that I do every day. And it is probably something that, again, every day I feel the most benefit from.

Oscar Trelles: [00:09:41] Definitely. I mean, the other day I got a media request and they were asking for. Now, what do you do when you when you travel? And in my head, like, I don’t really do anything differently. but for example, if I’m going to the airport or going through to like I avoid elevators if at all possible. Even the people movers, I just walk as much as I can. So when I travel, I’m even more conscious about how much I am walking, how much distance I am placing between a meetings or, you know, different appointments so that I, I design my, my life from in a way, that movement is part of it. For example, I live in Malaga now and I don’t live in the center of the of the of the town. I live on purpose about 20, 25 minutes away from the center so that I have to walk. I have to move without having to plan for it. Right. So this is this is part of the, I mean, I wouldn’t even call it a hack or a tip, but it’s one of the things that I share in the book, like a, you know, a design your life, your routines in a way that doesn’t like thinking about exercise or thinking about movement doesn’t become another chore. It is just part of how you live.

Peter Bowes: [00:10:52] You mentioned the book. Tell us the title of the book. And you’re still writing this book, aren’t you? You hope to publish it, I assume, in a few months time.

Oscar Trelles: [00:10:59] Yeah. So the book is coming out in, in October. It’s called The Human OS Manual. And yes, you know, as somebody that started his career as a software engineer, that metaphor is very, very applicable to, to me, but I started seeing people that have nothing to do with technology use the metaphor as a way to explain how we operate in our environment. the problem or the gap I’m trying to feel is that most of these definitions of human operating system put the system outside of the body. You know, they tend to be organizational philosophy or even there’s, there’s a software HR software called the human OS. So they all put this, this, relationships outside of the organism. And I think that’s, incomplete, right? Like there is a lot of, interactions that happen within the organism and how are the inputs that we receive. And by inputs I mean it in the in the whitest way possible light food, the air that we breathe, the noise that we consume when we live in, in city environments, the social media or the media in general that we consume all these things, going into our system and they meet a state, our state is how we are in any present time. It’s not just our mood, but it’s a combination of all these, all these inputs and how they affect our system. It is also a function of our level of recovery, which usually tends to, to, to be a minimized to rest. But it’s not just rest, it’s just how we are able to organize ourselves to meet more and more demands. Right? all these things actually have an effect on our outputs, be it for work or just how we are able to, to have relationships with other people. are all these outputs over time become patterns and these patterns allow us to adapt to the environment or not. And then all of these things are contained within our own level of awareness of this system that we are running. And while a lot of these functions are affected directly by our actions, we also belong to communities. We also belong to groups of people. So maybe our nervous system is is individual. But how we regulate is not right because we’re always in constant contact with other people.

Peter Bowes: [00:13:17] One of the central planks of your theory, and indeed your way of life, is that we shouldn’t, in terms of our mindset, be chasing longevity. It is something you say that should evolve organically. What do you mean by that? Because I think some people listening to you now might even say, well, you seem to be chasing longevity. Yes. You’re bringing all of these sort of lifestyle hacks into action. And I totally agree with you in terms of, of sleep and movement and all these daily factors that we can bring to ourselves. But is it not true that most of us in our hearts are are chasing longevity?

Oscar Trelles: [00:13:57] I think to a certain degree we are. But this is more of a modern a conundrum, right? And it depends on whether you are consuming any of this as an input, like a healthspan is not really something that most people were even aware a couple of years ago. I wasn’t aware of the term until I actually started writing the book. Like in reality, I started writing a different book before I landed into what I’m writing about right now. But yes, so there’s a long tradition of or not so long, but there is a traditional longevity being understood as a series of hacks. You know, biohacking is a big word. I prefer bio optimization, if anything. But it’s not that the tips or the hacks are wrong is that is where they belong in our organization as individuals, right? These things are generally treated downstream, not really upstream in how we behave. There’s there’s a term that that I kind of coined in the in the book, which is evolutionary disparity. And this has to do with how our organism, our biological information, information, our physiology is under utilized under challenge, but our minds are overclocked, are constantly being stimulated by notifications, by emails, by social media, etc.. Right. So this is a novel problem if you think in terms of evolutionary timeline, right. Our ancestors, more than 10,000 years ago, they still had to go out in any kind of environment. It didn’t matter if it was hot or cold. They had to walk long distances to procure food, and there was no guarantee that they would get it. Today we are guaranteed three meals a day. We live in an air conditioned environments. Our body doesn’t have the challenge that used to be part of how we survive, right? And this is affecting how this disbalance between our mind and our body creates anxiety, creates stress. It’s just problems of modern life. But from from my point of view, it could be solved with lifestyle, but obviously it needs it requires some level of conscious awareness of the system.

Peter Bowes: [00:16:11] And you write that aging is not a fate?

Oscar Trelles: [00:16:13] When you’re a kid, you’re not looking for for lessons in every everywhere you go. But I wasn’t even thinking about my grandfather or my great grandfather when I started writing the book, but I realized that I had like decades ago, I had seen people that were in terms of age, they were older, but they were super functional. They were active. They they were not necessarily working as a job, but they were involved in daily activities. and they weren’t chasing longevity, but they were very, very active, very, very, very vital. Right. Today, most of the people that I know that are in those in their 70s and the 80s, they are spending most of their time are clinics or hospitals getting treated, consumer medicine. So that kind of that contrast kind of clicked on me when I started seeing some, some of these Blue Zones, for example, reported this documentary that was, become, it became very, very famous a few years ago. And I realized a lot of people that have no access to all this longevity information, they’re not even thinking about living long lives. It is just that their environment enables them to do so because they are in constant movement. They are part of a very engaged communities today, even though we live in cities that are super dense with people, we are facing a crisis of of loneliness, which is, you know, super, super interesting, right?

Peter Bowes: [00:17:46] It’s fascinating and actually quite disturbing the extent to which loneliness is affecting people and indeed causing premature death. You mentioned Oscar, your grandfather. Just tell me a little bit more about him and what you observed about his lifestyle.

Oscar Trelles: [00:18:02] Yeah, I mean, the memory I have of him, I mean, I was still very young, maybe like 7 or 8 years old. But the memories I had of him is that he was always in the rooftop of the house. He used to work in merchant, steamboats in the in the Amazonas, in, in the jungle area of Peru. back then that was the, the speed of life. Like you don’t, you didn’t even have jet lag because you couldn’t move as fast as, or faster than a steamboat or faster than, than a train. Right. So for years he worked in a, in steamboats. And then when I met him, he was just a constant presence in family life. He would go to the to the port and buy fish, and then he would sell it in the neighborhood. So he was constantly active. And if he wasn’t selling fish, he was actually a needing fishing nets that he actually never I never saw him using them for anything, but it was just part of his routine of being constantly engaged with some activity, either by himself or in family life.

Peter Bowes: [00:19:12] Did he lived to a great age?

Oscar Trelles: [00:19:14] By the standards of 40 years ago? Yeah. I mean, he was in a in his 89 or something like that. But actually he, he suffered a fall. And that’s what eventually led to, to him to not recover from that. So it wasn’t I don’t I’m not an expert in in medicine, like you said, I’m not a medical professional, but maybe without that event, he could have lived a lot longer because of how engaged he was in life.

Peter Bowes: [00:19:40] Exactly. Actually, 89 is is indeed still a great age even today. I think still the average lifespan, at least in the Western world, is about 80. Actually, some countries and in big part because of Covid. But in some countries over the last few years, average life span has actually fallen, which I think a lot of people don’t realize. And I think one of the reasons for that is clearly modern culture, modern ways of life that just isn’t for all the science that we understand about longevity. Modern ways of life are actually quite negative in terms of promoting our longevity and especially our healthspan.

Oscar Trelles: [00:20:18] Yeah. I mean, as a species, we are the only ones that we know of that actually have a operating conditions or insisting gradient operating conditions that operate against our own welfare, which is remarkable. But again, it goes back to how we learn to behave like we we go to school and we start being told what not to do, what to do, and we tend to start postponing our happiness, right? People when they want to wait until retirement to do the things that they would like to do today. you know, people tend to postpone happiness for when they have the car or the house or the vacation. And we are told that we need to, tolerate a working conditions so that we can afford taking a vacation for 2 or 3 weeks a year, and then return back into, into that loop, right? So all these things are things that are modern issues, right? Our ancestors didn’t have to deal with this.

Peter Bowes: [00:21:16] And one aspect of modern day life is the technology that we have around us our phones, our smartwatches, our straps at various monitoring devices that we were. To what extent do you think these devices are are helping us or are they still. I mean, just to use the term, are they still toys that they’re fun to play with? But do they significantly impact the way that we age and potentially affect our healthspan?

Oscar Trelles: [00:21:43] That’s a great question I have mixed feelings about it. I mean, as somebody that has worked with technology for most of his life, I love data. And the problem is that most of these devices today, they lack at the interpretation layer. I had a during one of my last retreats, one of the participants came to me a little bit concerned because, you know, she was being told by her a ring, I don’t know which brand, but that she was stressed, but she felt really well. So I was curious and asked her to bring me the data. So I looked at the at the report and there was a spike in her heart rate at around 2:30 p.m. or something like that. So I asked her, what what were you doing at 2:30 p.m. and she was in the Jacuzzi, having a great time. But obviously, if you’re in the Jacuzzi, your heart rate is going to spike. So it was, you know, there was always that missing link right there. Right. So so I think that data is useful as far as you can understand them in context. Right. I used to track everything too. I was obsessed by that. But the obsession with with data gathering and interpretation can also lead to stress that may undo some of the benefits of actually doing the practices that you are introducing in your life. Right? So data is a great tool, but I want people to start trusting their bodies more and use the data as confirmation, not as, not to counter what their bodies are telling them to, to what is happening. Right. So in the programs that I’m running, the goal is that to, to restore some of these, inner body knowledge.

Peter Bowes: [00:23:30] You write about rhythm, the daily rhythm of our lives. And it’s something that fascinates me in terms of just how we organize our days and the highs and lows in terms of energy. And one thing that you said just now in terms of maybe parking 20 minutes away from where you need to be and actually building that into your lifestyle. So you leave kind of considerable gaps during your day between your meetings or whatever you need to do to perhaps just to breathe a little bit, to indulge in some exercise, not excessive exercise, but just getting from A to B, maybe a 20 minute walk is going to be just over a mile, probably for most people or thereabouts a mile. And that is building exercise into your day without having to obsess over exercise. And to me, that’s what the rhythm of the day is all about.

Oscar Trelles: [00:24:19] Yes. And, you know, I am very conscious that not everybody runs their own business or has complete control over their schedule, but we also have more levers than we than we think. Right? Even if you work in an office and you have only five minutes between meetings, those five minutes you could use by taking the stairs up and down or doing some squats or taking … Or some of those meetings could be done while walking. You don’t need to be sitting in a conference room. I remember working in startups. Sometimes we would have in order to to make the meetings shorter. Actually, we would have standing meetings or sometimes even like a plunge, like doing planks while meeting so that we could get get to the meetings faster, but also unconsciously was a way to, to introduce some, some exercise, some, some movement in there. So something I used to do in New York, for example, instead of taking the subway all the way from my home to the, to the office, I would, pick like the 3 or 4 stations before my, my office or the one closest to my office, get my coffee and continue walking. If you drive, you could also do the same. You don’t have to park, you know, in the parking lot closest to the to the office. You could do something like that, right? So I think, yes, a life can be constraining if you have less control over your over your calendar, if you have to work for somebody else. But I also think that we have more, more, more leverage than we think.

Peter Bowes: [00:25:47] Since you started looking into this area in some detail, is it possible to categorize for me the most significant changes that you’ve made to your life that you’ve felt the biggest impact from?

Oscar Trelles: [00:26:00] Yes. I mean, absolutely. Walking. I know it’s it’s probably the cheapest thing you can do. Nobody can profit from you walking. And maybe that’s precisely what is not promoted as much. But since Covid, I mean, even as a young kid, I like to to walk. I would go on hikes even though I wasn’t thinking about them as hikes back in the day. But then I got busy. I got a job and I had all these other things. But Covid restored that that ability to go for long hikes, and I just never stopped. Like whenever I go on a hike, it tends to be pretty, pretty long. And it’s not just good for your for the body. It’s great for the mind. I’m pretty sure we all have experienced moments where we have some of our greatest, most inspiring ideas when we are taking a shower or when we are not really doing anything right. So the problem with one of the problems with modern life is that boredom gets a bad rap. We are constantly stimulated and when we are not, we are looking for the stimulation. People are having a conversation at a at a cafe, and the moment somebody stops talking, the immediate reflex is to go look at the phone for no reason at all. Right? We’re just constantly looking for stimulation. And when healthy boredom actually is what fuels creativity. Yes. The spaces where you are not really thinking. So a 5-10 minutes of silence is probably the second in that in that list. So I start my my day with just silence. not even meditation, just sitting in silence and hearing what was going around. Breathwork is another one. again, this one is another very, very underrated tool. Like constantly or more typically, we are breathing very shallowly, which actually engages our sympathetic nervous system, which is what causes anxiety and stress. not, there’s not enough information out there on how to breathe properly. And breathing is really the closest we have to a manual control for our nervous system. It’s the easiest and fastest way to regulate us. Now that I’m in Lima, I remember my my grandma, who was not a coach, not a health expert, but whenever I would get frustrated, she would tell me, regulate yourself. In Spanish, it sounds a little bit more folkloric, but basically she was asking me to take a deep breath and calm down. And so these are things that we have forgotten as a species that we probably knew how to do when we were in, when we were in overstimulated.

Peter Bowes: [00:28:39] And when you talk to people who are perhaps not as invested in the topic of human longevity as, say, someone like me, but you talk to, let’s say, ordinary people for want of a better term. How receptive are people to your ideas? I mean, you said a little while ago that you hadn’t really heard of the term healthspan until a couple of years ago, and I think it is fair to say that most people probably still don’t really get what that word means. They understand lifespan. But Healthspan, I think is still a little alien to people. But when you explain it, hopefully it makes sense to people. So are people receptive to these kinds of ideas, do you find?

Oscar Trelles: [00:29:19] Generally, yes. But I think it’s, it’s more interesting to them when these practices or these ideas actually affect their daily lives. We are building our healthspan on a daily basis. The decisions that we made today, or the practices that we do today will have a long term effect on our health, which is tied directly to the to the healthspan. So in the book, I’m exploring a first of all, visualizing this human operating system in a way that makes sense to people that is less abstract and more practical than offering some levers to affect it, but then delivers a apply it to the, to the system. Then they create the operating conditions that in the long term will affect not just the longevity, but the healthspan like how well we live those those extra years that we that we get. Right. So when you can make that argument and you can make that arc visible to them, people are receptive. somebody in their 20s or 30s are probably not thinking about getting old. I wasn’t, I wasn’t thinking about that at all when I had that age. People closer, you know, to the to the 40s, 50s, 60s then they see the, the, the more direct, healthspan benefits when they are explained is. So there are two camps in that sense, right? So on one hand, I have the these retreats that I’m running that are specifically for healthspan. But when I work with, with founders and senior leaders, I talk about state advantage because how we are able to operate on a daily basis with a well-regulated nervous system can actually lead to better decisions, better run businesses, and better personal lives as well.

Peter Bowes: [00:31:10] Do you think over the years, the decades, even centuries that we have been abusing our human operating system and perhaps that that abuse as technology has evolved and we’ve become this kind of 24 hour society that that abuse, if it exists, has has gotten worse and that it’s something that’s simply evolved with us without us really realizing that some of the lifestyle habits that we get used to these days are actually quite bad for us.

Oscar Trelles: [00:31:39] Yes, I think it’s just a consequence of consumerism to some, to some degree. And this idea that we can get anything at any time, anywhere. And don’t get me wrong, I think there is advantages to that. Like when, when my, the mother of my kids was pregnant and in New York, I loved having a bodega open at two in the morning to go help and get some the craving satisfied. so there are, there is a place for that. The problem is when we ignore what actually, how they actually affect our nervous system, right? So I am not opposed to modernity, right? I’m not opposed to, to, to a technology or modern medicine. I just want us to be more aware of how these things affect us so we can make the right trade offs. Right? It’s not about never having a drink or never going to bed late. It’s just knowing how that will affect our systems so that we can do something about it later. In general, when our nervous system is better regulated, we can deal better with with, with any adversities, right? we just, we, we have adaptive range to deal with any of these things that get in the way, but just living normal lives, right? It’s not about over optimizing our lives. It’s about understanding how the relationships between our actions and our nervous systems manifest on a daily basis.

Peter Bowes: [00:33:13] And if you could redesign one aspect of modern day life to benefit our healthspan, what would that be? Perhaps one aspect of modern day life that’s not necessarily in our own individual control, but the structures that are around us.

Oscar Trelles: [00:33:31] I would say that the big one is, organizing work around people’s, natural energy, energy flows, which are different, right? So chronotypes are a real thing. People have different circadian rhythms. And that’s probably, you know, if you talk about hacks like that’s the main productivity hack that I give to people. Like don’t ignore your, your energy flows, but actually use them to your advantage. Right? There’s a reason why my mornings are, are very slow because my energy, my personal energy doesn’t peak until 2 to 5 p.m. and that’s what I use. what I do the hardest work. That’s where I book a coaching sessions or writing blogs. That’s what I need. that’s what I, where I have the most available energy to do the hardest tasks, right? In the mornings, I tend to wake up at 7:30 without an alarm, without anything and I am ready for the day. Even though I’m still slow to start. So generally after waking up, I take a tall glass of water and then proceed to doing some breathwork, maybe meditation. And then by nine I have my coffee, which is probably the one artifact that still keeps from my corporate life, but it signals the start of the working day to me. So it’s kind of a – it’s more of a signal – rather than a than a necessity at that, at that point. And, and I don’t share this for other people to, to copy. but it took me a long time to figure out what is my, my rhythm. Right. And one of the problems also that we have today is that there’s so much information out there, and most of it is right, but out of context, because what works for me won’t necessarily work for you, Peter, or anybody else. Right? So understanding energy. energy levels are circadian rhythms, and if corporate environments could use them to their advantage, that would be a huge deal.

Peter Bowes: [00:35:44] Oscar, your observations about life and how we live it are fascinating and I think very close to my heart. I look forward to reading much more detail when your book comes out later this year. Thank you very much indeed.

Oscar Trelles: [00:35:59] Thank you Peter.

Peter Bowes: [00:36:00] The Live Long podcast is a Healthspan media production. I’m Peter Bowes. You can contact me through our website, livelongpodcast.com, where you’ll also find show notes for this episode.