Are We Rushing Life? | Alex Snider

Alex Snider: [00:00:00] We feel in our body the stress response. And what happens is we’ve learned because time and urgency and the scarcity of time. This podcast is called Live Long. Life is short, right? And so we’ve been taught to treat time as a threat.

Peter Bowes: [00:00:20] Hello, welcome to the Live Long podcast. I’m Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity. Now, if living long also means living well, could being late sometimes be the right thing to do? It might sound like a tenuous connection, but we often focus on adding healthy years to our lives. And Alex Snider is asking the question whether our fixation with punctuality and speed is stopping us from fully enjoying those healthy years. After 15 years in high pressure government roles and a cycling accident that forced him to slow down. Alex began questioning our relationship with the clock. His new book is called Sometimes You Should Be Late. So when does slowing down help us live better, and when is lateness simply inconsiderate? Which I will admit was my first thought when reading this. Alex, welcome to the Live Long podcast.

Alex Snider: [00:01:25] Thanks, Peter. It’s a real gift to be with you.

Peter Bowes: [00:01:27] It’s good to talk to you. And you know, I’m the kind of person who hates being late. So my first thought in my mind when I saw your book was, is this an attempt just to persuade me that occasionally it’s okay to be late?

Alex Snider: [00:01:42] Hmm. I’m going to slow down with that question because it’s easy for a book title like this. Sometimes You Should Be Late to slip into this very simple thing of like, yeah, there’s always exceptions. Like, oh yeah, like sometimes you should be late if, like your car breaks down or there’s an accident, or like your wife has an appendix burst. Like those sort of exceptions. And I really think this book and my experience with this is a is much deeper than that. It’s about the kind of people we are and the kind of behaviors towards others and also towards ourselves that are much more prevalent, much more salient, much more accessible when the things that we prioritize are clocks and number of things that we get done, how quickly we get back to emails. It’s about who we become. And the idea of the permission to be late is just the tip of the iceberg.

Peter Bowes: [00:02:45] So before we get more deeply into that, then let’s just slow down a little bit as you say, and tell your story. And I think what’s resulted in your thinking now based on what’s happened to you, I suspect over the last couple of decades. And I mentioned that cycling accident that you had.

Alex Snider: [00:03:03] Yeah. And it is a nice thing to slow down with my story because it’s not just my story. It’s something I imagine others can relate to in some way. So for the first part of my life, the first about 30 years, I was in this pattern of achievement and doing so went to great schools, got good grades, got into good higher education, got the right job, and did well in those jobs. And so the first part of my journey was achievement. It’s doing and it’s part of what makes life fulfilling. You know, achieving things gives us a sense of self efficacy, self-worth. You know, your podcast is about kind of not just living longer, but having that be productive, healthy, doing things in the world. The problem was, Peter, is that I didn’t really inhabit the how. What were the quality of my days? Were all these things actually making me happy? What kind of person was I to my friends and to my family? If I was constantly looking at my watch for the things I needed to do? And so what happened about a decade ago was I had a bike accident, and it led to a pretty bad concussion that left me out of the workforce for several weeks, looking away from my phone because it was very jarring for me and having to embrace a different brain, a different body where I could. There was no surgery. There were no medications that could help me. What I had to do is I had to change my relationship to the life that I had. And what I found when I slowed down and I went through meditation through, through through therapy, those were pathways for me of slowing down is I started to pay a bit more attention, not just to the what I was doing,the memo I had to write for my work or the birthday party I wanted to go to. But how did I inhabit that moment? Was there a quality of presence, kindness, grace? How did I treat a colleague who didn’t get back to me on time with what they were due to me? And so it really led me to think about not just the kind of life I was living on my resume, but the kind of my ability to take these values that I told myself that I held in generosity and actually bring it into the world.

Peter Bowes: [00:05:21] And aside from the accident, did you live what you might consider to be quite a stressful life at that time? Was it a difficult job? Was it a tough job? Were there stresses in your life that maybe the accident caused you to think about and to appreciate and to confront?

Alex Snider: [00:05:40] Yeah, this is something I think about a lot. I’m a meditation teacher as well. I do a lot of facilitation and group settings and speaking. And what comes up a lot is like stress versus stressful, you know, in in the Buddhist texts, they talk about the difference between pain and suffering. And so I would say that especially before my accident, my job was very stressful. There were interpersonal conflicts, there were impossible deadlines. And I had this unconscious relationship to them where it was like, I’m always behind. Or can you believe my boss did that thing to me? And like, why is this person so unreasonable? And so it was this very much like, I need to achieve something. I’m not able to do it. And so there was a kind of a very reactive part of me that was coming out. But with the accident, with the slowing down journey that that kicked off, it helped me come into a, a more true relationship with stress and with stressful. And so a boss that maybe gave me bad guidance and wasn’t particularly generous to me. They weren’t just, oh, that awful boss that I have. They were someone who was suffering, who was under a lot of pressure themselves, who was maybe not letting themselves take a break. And so it changed my relationship to all the stimulus of my world. I mean, traffic’s a great one. It’s traffic stressful. Not necessarily. I mean, it’s something that’s there. It’s true that, you know, your Google Maps says it’s going to take 20 extra minutes. That’s just a fact. But how do we relate to it?

Peter Bowes: [00:07:15] What kind of work did you do? Is that relevant?

Alex Snider: [00:07:23] Hmm. I’m pausing with the question. Is it relevant? I think it is. So I was a diplomat for ten years. So working on foreign policy overseas in different contexts. And then I worked on domestic politics, first in the Senate and then also working with the White House. And it was important in this interesting way. I was doing something of value. I was helping people. And so there was this a sense of urgency that is not just connected to making money, to doing something that’s like selfish. It was a sense of, I’m a public servant. We need this sense of urgency. And the thing that I only really saw in retrospect, looking back at that part of my career, is that there is something that was lodged pretty deep in my ego around that, too. It was a sense of like, I need to be the kind of person who’s really working hard for people. I need to be the kind of person who’s pushing forward these projects and hitting the deadlines. And because people are watching people matter, and because there was this sense of the end goal being really important, being really impactful. What winds up happening, and I’ve seen this across all kinds of nonprofits and government agencies that have these good missions, is the way that we treat one another starts to become secondary. Sort of this ends justify the means kind of idea behind that.

Peter Bowes: [00:08:50] So do you have regrets about that time of your life and the way in which perhaps you didn’t have the appreciation of time that you have now?

Alex Snider: [00:09:00] Yeah. It’s interesting. Like when I think back to my career, the things that I regret are kind of these very these very small moments, these moments of telling the intern, I didn’t have time to get coffee with them or the meetings where I’m kind of like performing that I know what the answer is instead of just leading the way that I think leaders need to do, which is to be vulnerable. The number of times, thinking back into my early career, when I was asked a question by someone who was very senior and I sort of, you know, blubbered some convincing half answer rather than saying, you know what? I haven’t thought about that. And I don’t really know. And like, that sort of vulnerability was something It took me a long time to learn. And so I think as I’ve become a leader and thinking about trying to help other organizations and individuals, you know, lead in all the different ways we can in these lives. I think about the times when I had that fork in the road of, do I perform competence that I know the answer or do I turn towards? I don’t really know. And like, I feel self-conscious for not being a better leader here. Those times where I tilted towards performing, those are the kind of things that I feel regret about.

Peter Bowes: [00:10:19] And so at what point? And I get that the cycling accident was really pivotal in terms of your thinking, but at what point did you make the correlation with punctuality that eventually led to the title of your book? Was there a thought process that suggested to you that this would really resonate with people? This is a way to perhaps help people not go through that lifestyle that I was going through, where I didn’t have this appreciation of perhaps other people and spending time with people. And as I phrased it earlier, fully enjoying life.

Alex Snider: [00:10:54] Yeah, there’s a few different threads here. So I’m going to do my best to, to sort of pull this together. So one of the ideas that I am obsessed with, and I think about this a lot when I’m on a podcast, when I’m in spiritual settings, when I’m in workplaces, is does the cover match the book? Does the tin match what’s inside? Are we able to, to model what we’re offering, what we’re espousing, what we’re talking about? And so I think about that with organizations that have these great values and like, how are we treating one another? And then I also think about how in our lives there are these big moments of generosity and kindness and care. And then there are these micro ones, these smaller ones. And as I’ve become a bit more committed to spiritual practice, to teaching that to. I’ve come to see that these small moments, these daily moments, they’re not these trivial things. They are actually the building blocks, the stepping stones for the big moments. And so for me, when I talk about punctuality, it is an entry point. It’s an everyday experience we all have about what do we prioritize? Do we say the only thing that matters here is the clock and the time? Or on the other end of the spectrum, which I don’t think, by the way, is any morally better. Time doesn’t really matter. And we can just like chill and like, what’s your problem, dude? Why are you caught up in hustle culture? Just like, I don’t think that is actually a morally defensible position either. And so for me, because every single one of us will have a dozen interactions on, on every single day with either being the one who’s a little bit late or waiting on someone. It is an accessible way for us to reflect on how do we live a life aligned with our values in this really fast world? How does that resonate with you? Peter, I know you mentioned that punctuality is important to you.

Peter Bowes: [00:12:54] Punctuality is important. And I think I think you’re using punctuality, and especially as you explain it in the title of your book, just to, to strike an immediate chord with us, to make us sit up and listen. And perhaps it’s a book title that we don’t necessarily need to take so literally, but it does just open the book. If you want to use that phrase to this debate, that discussion that we’re having about time. And the one thing that I’ve noticed as I get older, and I’ve worked in journalism and broadcasting all of my life, and in many respects that’s actually quite similar to your experience working in diplomacy, politics, Washington. I worked in Washington as well. I get it in terms of that atmosphere. But as I grow older and especially continue to appreciate my good health. And I have friends who don’t age with good health. I appreciate time and pausing and pulling back much, much more than I used to. And I think that’s what you’re trying in this book, just to to needle people a little to get them to think about.

Alex Snider: [00:14:00] I am. And I notice myself when you were like, well, I don’t take it so literally. I actually, I really want people to take it literally too, because that’s where the provocation happens. And, you know, I joke about this in the book that an equally accurate title for this book could be often you should be on time. And so for me, like where I think this is a literal thing is the most important word in that title. It’s sometimes it’s about discernment and choice. And there are times where it is the wrong decision to be punctual. Like I have very clear that it is the wrong decision. And you can insert any number of examples of how that could possibly be the case, because the truth is, being on time, being punctual is one way to show care. Care for ourselves because we care about this meeting, care for the person we’re meeting. But it is not the only way to show care. For example, one of the things I talk about in this book is I create a new term called emotional punctuality. So time punctuality is when you show up. Peter podcast interview starts at 2:00. I’ll show up at 2:00. Emotional punctuality is the quality of our presence. So let’s say I had a really important phone call with my mom that I was like, I can’t do the phone call. I’m talking with Peter right now and I’m with you. And during this entire podcast, I’m wondering about that call and feeling bad about it. So I’m not even listening to you at all. And so yes, I showed up on time, but at what cost? And was I really honoring our connection? Just showing up like literally on the right time, or is there a deeper way to honor our connection? And I think there is.

Peter Bowes: [00:15:43] You return throughout the book to the Good Samaritan experiment, which really resonated with me. Can you just explain what that is?

Alex Snider: [00:15:52] Yeah. And it’s a perfect segue in this conversation around like, sometimes you should be late. So the Good Samaritan study is a study in the 1970s at a Princeton seminary school in the in the US. And it was set up where seminary students, as the participants were asked to give a speech across campus. On their way there there was an actor as part of the study who was pretending to be in pain, to need assistance. And the question is, would they stop and help them? And so what they did in this experimental, this experiment was they altered the sense of urgency. So some were told, our experiment is running late, please hurry and get there. And some were told some variant of got plenty of time just like make your way over there. And what the study found is there was a gigantic gap. I think it was a 50% change of how more how much likely people were to stop. And so what’s interesting about this study is it’s actually it glorifies lateness. It says the ones, you know, our interpretation of the study is that the ones who did not help someone in need missed the mark, the ones on time did the wrong thing. Which is an interesting flip to this idea of like, no, if you’re late, it’s always disrespectful. The people that were on time were actually in the context of the study, kind of doing the wrong thing.

Peter Bowes: [00:17:18] And you also write about what you call the late mode in terms of the physicality of what that scenario does to our bodies, which is quite significant.

Alex Snider: [00:17:30] Yeah. And it’s really interesting because on one hand, this can be an academic topic about like being on time and like the cost of it and blah, blah, blah. But we can feel this in our bodies. We’ve all been, you know, behind the wheel, looking at the traffic in front of us, knowing that we’re going to be late for a job interview, to meet someone who we’re really excited about meeting and to feel that impact. And it’s something that is not just, you know, a thought. It’s felt like we feel in our body, the stress response. And what happens is we’ve learned because time and urgency and the scarcity of time. This podcast is called Live Long. Life is short, right? And so we’ve been taught to treat time as a threat. And this shows up in our bodies. And for me, I think what we need to do is we need to become more aware of that because this is the journey of mindfulness. It’s awareness to choice. And if we’re just letting ourselves be unconsciously ruled by this threat response, we’re not able to access the wiser parts of our brain that can look beyond what I call horse blinders. This sort of narrow sense of view that what matters most is getting there on time. Not things like, oh, not getting in a traffic accident, or like not being fueled by rage at drivers. These things matter just as much.

Peter Bowes: [00:18:54] And this feeling of continually rushing is something that I think studies suggest this that can significantly affect our long term health. If we’re perennially in this state of, of excitement, of nervous tension, because we’ve got to get there.

Alex Snider: [00:19:12] Yeah. And I’m actually finding myself curious to hear about your experience, but I’ll kind of preface that by saying I have a chapter called The High Cost of Being on Time. And we often think about the cost of being late. What are people going to say? Are they going to judge me? But what is the cost of constantly rushing? In my life I’ve had bike accidents that have been spurred by me rushing. So like literally the physical costs, you can talk about hospitals and medical errors as examples of like the cost of rushing, but there’s also what you’re alluding to. It’s known as allostatic load. This idea of like the constant stress response and how that does actually like literally shorten our lifespan. And so you’ve talked a lot of people about this. I’m curious, how much does this has come up in your life or your conversations?

Peter Bowes: [00:19:59] Well, what you’re making me think about is I think there are several pieces to this jigsaw. And one thing that I often talk about is how I try to introduce into my daily schedule white space. So white space in the calendar where there’s just nothing. Yes, there are things to do. There was this interview to do with me, my time, 12 noon in Los Angeles, and we were both on time and we’re getting on. We’re having a great conversation. But I had 6 to 7 hours before this today and I was careful. And I kind of do this now without thinking, but to introduce some white space in that morning. I’ve been out, I’ve done a few things I’ve been writing, but I had times during the day when I didn’t have to do anything. That helps me to be punctual, that helps me to be ready and prepared to talk to you at the agreed time. Whether it’s talking to you, whether it’s going to the dentist, the doctor having an appointment with someone in a business sort of relationship, and then perhaps at a later time in the day, I might have a social engagement. And that’s what I’m less stressed about in terms of being on time. I think those formal business kinds of encounters, I still want to be punctual because it feels good to me, and it feels respectful to the person that I’m meeting, but it’s what I’m doing in the hours before that helped me maintain that punctuality and that professionalism.

Alex Snider: [00:21:25] That’s really powerful. And I want to jump in, Peter, because you just did something. It seemed very subtle, but it’s actually deeply, deeply important. So you talked about building in this white space and you said a few things. You said it helps you be punctual. You also said it helps you be prepared for the conversation. And then you also alluded to it kind of helps you just feel a little bit less stressed. I forget exactly the words you used. And that’s a really important sort of like using those three as like the trio. And this is why it’s important. A lot of self-help and productivity advice talks about building in white space, doing fewer things like knowing that commutes take longer than you think they will. And the goal that they set out is to be on time, leave early. So you’re on time. And I think that’s only partially true. Why do we leave early? It’s so that we can get there in a way that respects our values, that honors the whole gamut of values we hold, including being on time, but not exclusively. It’s also about being prepared. So we arrived at that interview not being like, oh my God, where’s the link? I’m running late. We arrived at that interview feeling, okay, this is a chance for me to show up as my best version of myself. And so how do I get to that point? Yes, I’m honoring you as the host. And so this is where kind of like building our lives in this world, obsessed with speed, really like the rubber hits the road. If we want to build a life where we can exercise our values, bring them, and whether those are the values for ourself to be calm, to be relaxed, to do our best, whether those are values to respect you and your time. We need to build a life that allows that. And so when we have back to back meetings or a schedule and we complain about that, okay, why did we decide that’s that’s how we should build our lives? Why did we decide that that white space is actually a problem, a sign of being unproductive?

Peter Bowes: [00:23:23] What does your research tell you about the fact that I think it’s a truth that we’re all made differently and that whereas the white space scenario might work for me or you, that it doesn’t necessarily work for everyone. And I’ll use as the example. And it’s almost a cliche, but getting to the airport on time, or how many hours early do you arrive at the airport for your flight? I’m you can probably guess what kind of person I am. I get there very early and I find it stressful if I’m catching a flight with someone else, a work colleague who has a different view and likes to arrive just as the plane is boarding and I can’t live like that. But for some people it’s the only way to do it and they seem to thrive on it.

Alex Snider: [00:24:07] Yeah. It’s interesting. I love when you said get to the airport on time. I just imagined like 9 billion definitions of when that was for domestic flight, international blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Peter Bowes: [00:24:20] Well, we know what the airlines say two hours domestic flight, three hours for an international flight. It always seems once you get there and there has been no significant traffic and the airport is flowing normally. It always seems like a long period of time to be hanging around at the airport, but it’s actually good time for me. I still enjoy that time. I enjoy the fact that I’m there and prepared. I’m ready for the journey and whatever the adventure is ahead.

Alex Snider: [00:24:44] Yeah, so you are doing what is at the core of what I’ve experienced and what I invite the reader to go on as a journey for the book. And it’s a journey from awareness to choice. So in your experience, Peter, you know what it’s like for you to get to the airport, maybe late, rushed. And you know what it’s like for you to get. There were plenty of time where you can set up your computer, maybe grab a coffee, maybe like just notice all these strangers, whatever you do at that time, you have found a way to make that useful for you in a better alternative than being very rushed and trying to jam things in last minute before you go to the airport. And so you have an awareness about what this pattern on punctuality and timing does for you. You’ve made a conscious choice. And that is exactly what I invite everyone to do. Maybe you’re I’ve been in this situation to where I’ve maybe been visiting a city, and there’s a friend who I’ve been dying to see, and their schedule has been booked, and the only time they can meet me is right before the airport. And so there’s a little bit of like, grittiness in there. I’m getting there a little bit late, but it’s a conscious choice to say, I want that relationship to be forwarded and that matters to me. And it maybe matters to me a little bit more than having that spaciousness at the airport. Different people, different preferences about jamming things in or having more spaciousness. There’s nothing wrong with either approach, but what I insist and why I have no why I say very early on, I have no idea when you should be late, when you should be unproductive. I have no idea what time you should get to the airport, but I think it’s really important at a moral level, at a moral level for you to slow down enough to consciously choose. Because if you’re someone who is stressed out by being late to the airport, how nicely are you going to treat the TSA agents when you are stressed? The airport? How nicely are you going to treat the poor airline person who’s been working their entire day checking people in and they take an extra 30s to look at your passport? For me, that has moral stakes. If you if you know you’re going to be stressed out, then how can you create conditions where you can be less stressed?

Peter Bowes: [00:26:52] And I think that goes to the heart of this topic, that it doesn’t just apply to getting to the airport and treating all those people that you mention in a proper, in a nice, kind way. It affects everything we do because our days are full of those brief encounters with other people. And, and you’re absolutely right that if you’re in a calm, collected state, the nature of that encounter is at least from what you put into it is going to be so much more positive.

Alex Snider: [00:27:23] Yeah, exactly. And it kind of leads to something we haven’t really talked about yet. But you alluded to this relational dynamic. And one of the things I think is the biggest gap in sort of the self-help productivity literature around time is the fact that we move through time together. All of the advice says, and your podcast is sort of around this idea of like, we have a limited number of hours on earth and we time is our most precious resource. That’s like, it’s a truism, right? I actually think it’s wrong. And this is why. Because what matters isn’t so much the time that we have, but our experience of it. And so if you’re meeting a friend and there’s this very high stakes sense of, like we said, we’ll meet at noon and like, I’m rushing to get there. I don’t have enough time. But if there’s communication, if you say, you know what, let’s aim for 12 to 12, 15. Or maybe you text them that morning saying, hey, this day has actually been really stressful. What am I doing next week? Like, are you open to that? There are ways that we can engage each other to take time from the category of being a solo struggle. We either fail or succeed at to this joint puzzle. We’re all trying to do the best and not live our life constantly stressed out, and we can help each other on that. Like one of the simple things is in your when you’re at work and there’s a deadline that feels hard for you, it feels stressful. What would it mean to just ask, does this have to get done today? Something like that is a way to invite a leader to your own journey of struggle, and trying to put all the pieces together and live your life. And so I really invite people to think about time as a relationship and one that we can inhabit together. I have a concept. I’ll stop here. I call time alchemy, which is this simple idea of like when we’re stressed. When we’re behind, we can name that. We can. You know, if I was five minutes late for this podcast, Peter and I said, man, Peter, I’m really sorry. I’ve been struggling with a lot these days. And like, I feel like I’m trying to do too much. And I clearly got this one wrong and I’m really sorry I was late. My story is that you’d probably received that quite well and would actually build our relationship.

Peter Bowes: [00:29:40] I think it’s a matter of taking a measured approach to things. And you use the example of a deadline at work, and if you think you’re not going to make it, could we just extend the deadline a little bit? Clearly, there are circumstances when that will be possible and those when it simply won’t be. My experience has been in my background, has been working in television and radio news with deadlines. And if there’s a live show at 6 p.m., you can’t delay it. You’ve got to be ready. That deadline doesn’t wait for you and can’t be pushed back for you. So I think there are certain professional situations that you have to grasp it, and you have to focus on on getting things right in that respect. But there are so many others that I think you accurately describe where things could be potentially delayed. And also, you mentioned I find it fascinating the name of this podcast, which is Live Long, the original title was Live Long and Master Aging, not delay aging, not reverse aging, not anti-aging, but just mastering aging. And just that, in a sense, what I meant by that was stepping back a little bit and, and thinking about it and taking a slow approach to the idea of aging and just mastering it and getting it right and the live long. It’s not just strive to live as long as we possibly can. It’s about living. Now. Living is appreciating the the flowers in the garden. It’s about appreciating the cooking that you’re doing or the music that you’re creating. It’s living long, and the long applies to what you’re doing right now. There are so many different connotations there that I really want to try to embrace all of it.

Alex Snider: [00:31:21] I love that, and I really am grateful you shared that because I feel like I, I get you like more. And I think I especially got you with this idea of how do we like, not just live long in terms of years, but in terms of like the scope. And I think that the phrase you used was the step back and have perspective. Like that is the secret sauce of this. And one of the things that’s a little bit of a, maybe a misunderstanding of my book. So it has a like an inviting sloth on the cover who are known for being super slow. It has like the quiet rebellion of slowing down in there. And so it’s tempting to think that this is a book about slowing down. And it’s really not. It’s a book about choice. In what you said about stepping back and gaining perspective. That’s what allows us to filter out maybe the manufactured emergencies, the things that were feeling like we have to respond to that work email more out of a sense of like, I want to make a good impression with my boss rather than out of a sense of, actually, this has stakes. And I even I’m hesitant to do this, but I think I want to do this because it feels like an edge for me. I even want to push on your example of TV news, and you can’t push the deadline back if there is 15 seconds of dead air on your TV station, it’s not a good look. Looking back on your deathbed, is that going to weigh on you?

Peter Bowes: [00:32:53] It would be a memory. It would be a significant moment, perhaps, but a little one off. And I get the point that you’re making that it’s only 15 seconds. But I think looking more broadly at that, if we all took that attitude towards what we were doing in television news, it would be a mess on the air and that, you know, you still have certain certain hurdles that you have to meet in life. But I think your your point, your broader point is that we don’t have to live our lives being that precise all the time. But I would certainly stand up for hitting those deadlines to the second on the hour. And there’s, you know, that’s, that’s not a bad thing. That’s if you work in my profession that there’s a feel good factor there of, of getting it right and, and achievement. And I come back to what I said before, it’s what you do in the 6 to 8 hours before that 6 p.m. deadline that that helps you get there, do things correctly, do things right, do something that the audience can appreciate and move on from it.

Alex Snider: [00:33:55] I love that, and I think you are just pointing at the exact thing here, that there is a skillful way to be late and to miss the deadline. And there is a less skillful way. And the skillful way is like we did all the prep we can. And also just chaos happens. People get sick. Like, you know, construction happens, like audio equipment malfunctions. Like these things do happen. And there are skillful ways for us to test things beforehand to, to build an extra time to find parking. And the world I don’t want to inhabit is one where we’re like, oh yeah, it’s fine. Like, don’t worry, it’s missed a deadline. But to be honest, Peter, I also don’t want to inhabit this world where we’re so scared about slippery slopes that we don’t give ourselves some grace. I’ll give you an example. I like working out. It’s really important to me. I like going for runs. There was a story I used to have, whereas if I skip one workout, I’m going to skip them all. And now I don’t think that’s right, because I think what it does is it creates this like reactive pattern where I have to do it or else whatever, instead of discernment and choice. And there are some days when I’m getting over a cold or I’m feeling like I need that extra sleep that I can really connect to my deeper knowing and say, this is actually a time that calls for slowness. And when we have these rigid rules, if you can’t be on time, be early. Always be productive, never be inefficient. It blocks us from this deeper sense of discernment and choosing.

Peter Bowes: [00:35:26] We’re just talking about television there. I think there’s another issue there. And I’m looking at this at this more from the consumer aspect rather than the person on screen producing the programs. But I think we’re in a different era now in terms of the time wasting element of just watching television and also social media, which opens an entirely different debate. But it does really fall right into what you’re talking about, that there are so many things that are quite easy for us to do now that we can languish, that we can waste time in a way that if I was on my deathbed, I might regret that. I wish I hadn’t done those things because it didn’t fuel me. It didn’t satisfy me in a way that perhaps I could have done by focusing on other aspects of my life or engagements with other people.

Alex Snider: [00:36:20] Yeah. I’m struck by some of the words you use that, that feel fairly charged, waste time, languishing. And they’re words that I at least attach a lot of judgment to. And you might try this out.

Peter Bowes: [00:36:37] It’s probably a judgment of myself to a large extent.

Alex Snider: [00:36:40] I think it might be. And I bring that up not to sort of single you out, but I think we do this a lot. I personally do this a lot in terms of like, oh God, what an unproductive day and how bad it was. And here’s what I’ve learned and you can try this on for yourself, Peter. And the listeners can try it on for themselves too. I don’t think judging ourselves really helps. I think there’s something skillful about like looking at our choices and seeing how how they feel for us and looking, looking in the mirror. But these like judgments like, oh God, I wasted my day doing this thing. I don’t think it helps. What does help is what you just pointed at, which is noticing. How does it feel to spend an hour on social media versus an hour playing the piano, or looking at your garden, or talking to a friend? And just like noticing these patterns of, does this feel like it’s aligned with my values? Yay or nay? And for me, this is worth slowing down comes in and I’ll give you an example. I was giving a presentation this morning to a group and I said, hey, notice your relationship with your phone while I’m presenting. Maybe there is an important email that you’re looking for that is gonna help you be present during this time. Or maybe going to your email inbox is going to mean that you’re actually missing every single word I say. And for me, this is about the journey of noticing and choosing social media to spend time connecting intentionally with your friends to see what they’re up to on social media, to get a sense of the news, to get some fun entertainment with dogs and cats. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It can be quite enjoyable. But if we’re noticing how that’s taking us out of human connection, if we’re noticing that it’s actually just like not really filling us, then that’s a moment where we can notice that and we can make different choices.

Peter Bowes: [00:38:35] Alex, you’re a master of the art of using what in broadcasting, we describe as the pregnant pause, just being quiet for a few seconds, between phrases, between sentences, and the potentially huge impact of just pausing and letting people think and how you. I think what fascinates me about this conversation is how you. You do that seemingly automatically. And I’m just curious, is it something that you’ve learned to do over the years that has brought value to the way that you communicate?

Alex Snider: [00:39:12] Hmm, yeah. I just noticed like, I want to just slow down with this moment too, because I’m noticing, hearing that appreciation from you as someone who’s done this for a long time to sort of notice something that I’ve actually worked on and to sort of honor its value, just it’s not just a nice thought it feels in my body. And so for you to slow down enough to notice that, to bring it to my attention, like it’s a gift. So thank you.

Peter Bowes: [00:39:48] You’re welcome. Something I notice a lot, and I think it’s in large part because of the profession that I’m in, that there is a tendency just to rush through things and that you can’t have the silences. And, you know, there have been times when I’ve edited out silences and gaps during a conversation. There could be technical reasons for that, but I think sometimes there is no good reason to ignore that moment of silence. And it really, for me, it kind of goes to the heart of the message that you’re trying to get across in this book.

Alex Snider: [00:40:20] Yeah. And I do want to like really give you the answer to that question because it’s a really important one in my life. And I’ll use the entry point of the book first, but I do want to make this personal. So there’s a chapter called How to Wait Without Waiting. And I talk about all sorts of different ways that we can reconceptualize this time of the literal waiting, my friends, ten minutes late. How do we feel about that time? And also the metaphorical waiting, the sort of sense of like, I’m 40 years old, I haven’t found my life partner yet. And there’s a sense of like, I am waiting for that to happen. Like my life will begin once that happens. And I have a choice about whether to inhabit my life now is something that’s deficient and bad, or in a moment of abundance of something else. And this comes back to this idea of pausing and the pregnant pause and leaving space in conversation. I used to think that that was a problem. That silence, that these moments in between, if the conversation sort of like had a bit of a lull. I lead meditation, have group, group process a lot. You ask a question as a facilitator. It’s horrifying if no one answers. Right. But I’ve really come to see that differently. And that’s a product of my own journey towards mindfulness reflection, both doing it and teaching it. It’s actually, you know, a pregnant pause. Like think about that metaphor. Like something is happening. There’s a nine month gestational process that’s happening. And you don’t tell a pregnant woman, like, come on, get on with it. Like you say no, like something is happening in that moment. And so for me, I think about how much more clarity, how much I’m able to sort through the various emotions in my mind and feel and actually express the truest thing. And how slowing down helps with that. How does that resonate for you?

Peter Bowes: [00:42:20] It resonates a lot with me. And I was going to ask you, Alex, as you get to the end of your day, sometimes maybe the end of a week and you look back over the last few hours or days, you look back and you get things in perspective in terms of what you’ve been doing. What are those moments that you look back on and cherish the most based on what you’ve been doing? Some of? We’re all very different people. Some of us like fast cars, some of us like being with our dogs and taking a long, meandering walk. And that can be the highlight of the day. What are those moments that you particularly cherish that might be very personal to you. There might be the kind of things that only you would enjoy, but I’m just curious. What gives you joy?

Alex Snider: [00:43:06] Hmm. Yeah. I’ll be honest, Peter, that question feels a little bit heavy right now in my life. And it’s because I’m at this interesting point now where I’m a first time author. I have a small publisher. I quit my government job to do this full time, and I’m trying to decide if I can actually do this. If I can actually make a living like an actual financial livelihood out of this. And so when I look back at my day of connecting with people like you, of, you know, giving a talk this morning and having a couple of people come up to me and said, that was really helpful for me. There’s a tendency for me to discount that, to say, that’s great, but where’s my keynote speaking gig? Or like, I. Why do I don’t I don’t have the book sales number that this other person did or like on my LinkedIn. The Business Book awards happened and like, where’s mine? And so this is an ongoing practice of attention for me, especially in this moment where I am trying to, to make a life out of this work, to really notice what are the things that matter to me. And it is to your deeper question, like, what are the things that bring me joy? It is when I’m able to slow down and notice that my work has helped one person. It is when I notice my goofy dog that’s on the couch there waiting patiently for me. Like, what a gift I have to have her in my life. And I’m, you know, I’m going to watch her die at some point in the next, hopefully 5 to 10 years. And what does it mean for me to really look differently at the things that I have from a place of abundance? And what does it mean when I look at it from a point of scarcity and not enough. And if I can say one more thing about that, and I have a couple friends and I have a, a daily practice, a gratitude practice, and even a joy practice where I email friends and share something that brought me joy. And over the last few weeks on book tour, I’ve actually fallen out of that. And this is a good reminder that this is actually the time when I need that even more. So that idea of how do we look back at our days and decide what what meaning we get from them? It’s something that I’m grateful for your reminder about.

Peter Bowes: [00:45:33] And just on that theme you mentioned, you talk about looking back. This is a podcast about longevity, human longevity, and we do a lot of forward thinking and looking ahead to the, the years and the decades in the future and how we might want to be living. Is that something that you focus on. Do you have an image of yourself in ten, 20, 40 years time of what you want Alex to be doing and the kind of life you want to be living?

Alex Snider: [00:46:06] Yeah, I have a very complex relationship with that question. As I explained a little bit at the start, the first, you know, 30 some years of my life was constantly looking down the road. The next project, the promotion, the next date. You know, these, you know, online dating is a reliable place to constantly be looking forward to something else and not looking at what’s around you. And so in this moment I’m in now, there is a certain amount of planning and project management and kind of thinking about how do I take this life that I want, that I felt that I want to have of being a creator and bringing ideas about more intentional, more relational living, not living in this binary of like always this and never that. I want to bring that into the world. And so I find myself shuttling between two different mindsets. One is I need to plan and control and get the PR and get the content out there and build this ecosystem of consumer, whatever. And then there’s also this other thing that’s vying for my attention in terms of thinking about the future, which is this quote I’ve heard. I don’t know where it’s from. And it’s this is my heart. Let it be of use. And putting myself out there in a relational way where if someone says, hey, we’d love to have you come speak with us, but we can’t pay you, then my immediate answer is not, I don’t do shit for free. What’s wrong with you? But it’s yeah, like, I want to support you. And for me, it’s shuttling back between the things that are skillful. There are some project management, there are some organization, there is some following up with leads and contacts. There is me talking to Peter and saying, I love this conversation. Do you have anyone else you recommend I talk to? Those sort of questions. But then there’s also this relational trust, this sense of I am putting out something that I think is of value. And my hope is that it’ll find the right audience, and they’re going to share it with the right people. That is eventually going to lead to this livelihood. And so for me, it’s this ongoing calibration of trusting the process and trusting the intentions I have and the value that I bring and the dignity of me offering something a little bit different than other people. And also being on time and also getting some shit done and also doing some time blocking and. And those two things being two different ingredients that I want to make sure I’m calibrating in the right way.

Peter Bowes: [00:48:52] Alex, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. I think I especially appreciate how we’ve probably both brought a little bit more of ourselves to the conversation than perhaps we had expected. Your book is called Sometimes You Should Be Late. It is a great read. Alex Snider, thank you very much indeed.

Alex Snider: [00:49:11] Thanks for having me, Peter.

Peter Bowes: [00:49:13] The Livelong Podcast is a Healthspan Media Production. I’m Peter Bowes. You can contact me through our website, livelongpodcast.com, where you’ll also find show notes for this episode.